N1? or N2?

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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby nobe » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:14 am

same here, i'm waiting until hardkernel is authorized to release more info about it.

i'm also interested in what kind of software support the soc manufacturer will provide !
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby odroid » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:35 pm

We can't release any information until the middle of October.
Sorry for the delay and please wait 5~6 weeks more.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby rooted » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:29 pm

odroid wrote:We can't release any information until the middle of October.
Sorry for the delay and please wait 5~6 weeks more.
Thanks for the update, nothing we can do but wait.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby SACHOMAN69 » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:47 pm

odroid wrote:We can't release any information until the middle of October.
Sorry for the delay and please wait 5~6 weeks more.

Gracias por la información, pues nos toca esperar de nuevo, a mi X-U3 aun le queda para su jubilación jijijijijiji jijijijijiji
Saludos
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby ASword » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:18 am

odroid wrote:We can't release any information until the middle of October.
Sorry for the delay and please wait 5~6 weeks more.


Thanks for the note. Waiting will be hard, but I'm sure it'll be worth it.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby cdu13a » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:17 am

Thanks for the update.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby mix » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:24 am

odroid wrote:We can't release any information until the middle of October.
Sorry for the delay and please wait 5~6 weeks more.


Looking forward to hearing more about the S922 next month.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby kafan1986 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:01 am

odroid wrote:We can't release any information until the middle of October.
Sorry for the delay and please wait 5~6 weeks more.


Cool. November is fine.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby 2ndSeb » Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:07 am

This will probably be a christmas gift to myself...
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby additude » Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:40 am

It will get here soon enough....
In the meantime, I'll be messing around with a NanoPC-T4 ....
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby FbS » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:56 pm

2ndSeb wrote:This will probably be a christmas gift to myself...


Yep. If N2 is available before christmas, that is likely to make quite a few sales for all of us that love tinkering with toys....
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby phaseshifter » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:17 pm

Well i am happy about that..sounds very promising ...some news is sometimes better than none ..it`s all good..just wait it aint that far away now... :)
Build It And They Will Come...Be Bold And Mighty Forces Will Come To Your Aid..!!!
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby fender90 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:29 pm

I'm so eager to see the specs of the upcoming board.
It will be amazing if the new board has an MIPI DSI or better EDP standard connector.
This will make the process of building embedded projects much easier, will reduce project size and unnecessary cables. Also it will be possible to connect multiple displays
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby dgbg9615 » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:47 am

Whether Odroid-N2 really comes?

It is now October, still no information from Hardkernel.
My hope is dwindling more and more that the N2 is still this year.
The alleged short delay in production, as Hardkernel wrote it is now over.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby ASword » Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:42 am

dgbg9615 wrote:Whether Odroid-N2 really comes?

It is now October, still no information from Hardkernel.
My hope is dwindling more and more that the N2 is still this year.
The alleged short delay in production, as Hardkernel wrote it is now over.




Their post further up this page says "mid-October". It is only October 2. Have patience.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby mad_ady » Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:24 am

Patience is a smaller and smaller resource in today's world. I remember that in my childhood I used to have almost infinite amount of patience. :)
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby meveric » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:12 am

mad_ady wrote:Patience is a smaller and smaller resource in today's world. I remember that in my childhood I used to have almost infinite amount of patience. :)

For me it's the other way around.. as a child time couldn't go by faster when waiting on something, but nowadays I'm more like.. have a little bit of patience and see what happens :D
But I admit I have less patients in gaming nowadays as I had as a child.
I have a hard time playing the same game for several hours or more nowadays when I could play the same game 15hrs and longer a day when I was younger :D
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby RomaT » Mon Oct 08, 2018 6:02 pm

odroid wrote:We can't release any information until the middle of October.
Sorry for the delay and please wait 5~6 weeks more.
i.e. October 22, we will know at least chip MCU ?
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby puja joshi » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:01 pm

Sounds great!! Thanks for the update.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby Nuems » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:57 pm

Seriously? Which update? Odroid's info is from 9/6/18 (or simply 18 posts above), RomaT added some questionable maths and then sort of asked for confirmation. When did people lose the ability to read and to do simple calculations?
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby rooted » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:59 pm

Nuems wrote:Seriously? Which update? Odroid's info is from 9/6/18 (or simply 18 posts above), RomaT added some questionable maths and then sort of asked for confirmation. When did people lose the ability to read and to do simple calculations?
LOL
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby OverSun » Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:37 pm

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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby mad_ady » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Come on guys, I thought you could spot a spammer account by now. Here are some guidelines:
1. Low post count/new user
2. Resurrects old thread
3. Posts something vague/short.
4. Repeats a previous post with little changes
5. Inserts dubious links to dubious products and services (the last one I noticed had a dot as a hyperlink)
There should be some spamassassin-like filter for forum posts as well.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby meveric » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:13 am

I'm just waiting for his comments or profile to change to include the spam :D
Right now it's just a friendly person with not really much to say.. ;)
(Wait for the mutation to happen)
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby elatllat » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:27 pm

I hope the N2 thermal solution looks like this; Image
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:54 pm

elatllat wrote:I hope the N2 thermal solution looks like this; Image


I thought the same some weeks ago but after doing extensive tests it's obvious that these heatsinks with an own huge thermal mass aren't the best candidates for sustained high performance. See 'Heatsink Efficiency' here: https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/Knowledge

If the S922X (or whatever SoC Hardkernel will use on the N2) has a somewhat large flat surface I hope Hardkernel provides a heatsink designed for direct contact with the SoC with only a thin film of thermal compound in between. And this heatsink being huge like the one for XU4Q but with more distance between the heatsink fins to allow convection to work better.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby FbS » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:06 pm

odroid wrote:We can't release any information until the middle of October.
Sorry for the delay and please wait 5~6 weeks more.


Today, we've just reached the 5 weeks mark since that post......Rolling drums...(again)..........
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby elatllat » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:16 pm


Thanks for the charts/data !
I'm interested in peak load cooling so the tall pine heatsink seems like the best balance of size/performance/silence.
Throwing out the size constraint, it would be interesting to see the performance of the RK3399 strapped to an upright $12 square aluminum tube.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:38 pm

elatllat wrote:it would be interesting to see the performance of the RK3399 strapped to an upright $12 square aluminum tube.


Hmm... can't open the link but if this is some massive thing with high thermal mass I doubt it works ok for your use case. The problem is that the SoC will transfer heat into the heatsink and if the latter has a high mass it will simply store the heat after some time and even transfers it back to the SoC. Also if you expose such a huge heatsink to direct sunlight it gets 'funny' (tested that by accident with 2 NanoPi M4)

Good heat transfer (high conductivity) between SoC and heatsink, large heatsink surface area (huge fins) and sufficient fin spacing seems like the best combination to me. Optionally to be combined with some airflow (laterally -- worked way better in my tests compared to a fan on top)
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby crashoverride » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:41 pm

elatllat wrote:I hope the N2 thermal solution looks like this

I much prefer the thermal solution on the N1.

The specific design mentioned is rather contradictory. The point of the RPI form factor is to re-use things designed for it. The massive aluminum block prevents the use of any RPI enclosures or mounts. It would make more sense to design the entire board for thermal efficiency rather than needlessly constrain it to the RPI form factor. Additionally, since the heatsink is bottom mounted, it is NOT optional. It can not be replaced, and its therefore considered "part of the board". On N1, the heatsink can be easily changed to meet the needs of a project.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:57 pm

crashoverride wrote:Additionally, since the heatsink is bottom mounted, it is NOT optional. It can not be replaced, and its therefore considered "part of the board".


SoC on the bottom side is most basic requirement to combine HATs with powerful boards. Thankfully FriendlyELEC guys picked up my suggestion and provide a nice Marvell based 4-port SATA 'HAT' for this board: https://forum.armbian.com/topic/8097-na ... ment=62449

Image

Such stuff is impossible if the SoC is on the wrong (upper) PCB side.

And with a couple of use cases such a heatsink is not necessary. You can also screw the board with a copper shim for heat transfer to any large metal plate around (e.g. an enclosure -- to get the idea just take a look at ODROID HC1 and HC2. A customer of mine attaches this way NanoPi NEO2 directly to the inside of rack cabinets which is only possible since the SoC is on the appropriate PCB side and not on the wrong one as unfortunately almost all SBC do it)
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby ASword » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:04 am

tkaiser wrote:
elatllat wrote:it would be interesting to see the performance of the RK3399 strapped to an upright $12 square aluminum tube.


Hmm... can't open the link but if this is some massive thing with high thermal mass I doubt it works ok for your use case. The problem is that the SoC will transfer heat into the heatsink and if the latter has a high mass it will simply store the heat after some time and even transfers it back to the SoC. Also if you expose such a huge heatsink to direct sunlight it gets 'funny' (tested that by accident with 2 NanoPi M4)

Good heat transfer (high conductivity) between SoC and heatsink, large heatsink surface area (huge fins) and sufficient fin spacing seems like the best combination to me. Optionally to be combined with some airflow (laterally -- worked way better in my tests compared to a fan on top)


I would have thought that what makes a good heatsink would be intuitively obvious, but apparently it ain't so. As tkaiser says, you don't want it to have a lot of thermal mass, instead you want to use thermally conductive material with large surface area. Look at radiators and heat exchangers -- they aren't big blocks, they are instead a large number of thin fins of metal. Once you have lots of surface area conductively connected, the next question is how fast can heat be transferred through that surface area. The usual approach is air exchange, by increasing the flow of air across the surfaces either by forcing air movement (a fan) or via position such that convection currents move the air as it is heated (larger spaces, open space above where air can flow away, source of cooler air below or to the sides). Liquid cooling brings a medium with much better heat transfer and specific heat capacity to and from the heat sink's surface area, but it also brings huge complications (and costs).
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby crashoverride » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:13 am

tkaiser wrote:Such stuff is impossible if the SoC is on the wrong (upper) PCB side.

The "wrong side" of the board for an ARM SBC is the bottom. Boards that correctly use the top side for thermal solutions enjoy far greater market share.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby elatllat » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:17 am

crashoverride wrote:...I much prefer the thermal solution on the N1...

I think you are alone on that because others replaced it with a nautica fan and/or a tall heat sync from the XU4Q to remove the horrible chirping sounds.

crashoverride wrote:
tkaiser wrote:Such stuff is impossible if the SoC is on the wrong (upper) PCB side.

The "wrong side" of the board for an ARM SBC is the bottom. Boards that correctly use the top side for thermal solutions enjoy far greater market share.

market share is all about marketing, not product value;
The XU4 was better value than the RPI 2 and 3.
RPI W is a different market niche.
I want my Thermal transfer on the opposite side from other components.
Last edited by elatllat on Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby crashoverride » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:22 am

elatllat wrote:I think you are alone on that because others replaced it with a nautica fan and/or a tall heat sync from the XU4Q to remove the horrible chirping sounds.

The important part of the statement is "replaced". That is not possible with a bottom mounted, proprietary thermal solution.

The "chirp" was a software issue, not hardware. I set my fan to "always on" and did not have "chrip" or thermal issues. I do not believe its possible to set an aluminum block to "high" or "low" according to my needs.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby elatllat » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:29 am

crashoverride wrote:
elatllat wrote:I think you are alone on that because others replaced it with a nautica fan and/or a tall heat sync from the XU4Q to remove the horrible chirping sounds.

The important part of the statement is "replaced". That is not possible with a bottom mounted, proprietary thermal solution.

The "chirp" was a software issue, not hardware. I set my fan to "always on" and did not have "chrip" or thermal issues. I do not believe its possible to set an aluminum block to "high" or "low" according to my needs.


There is no reason a heatsync on one side of a board is any more or less replaceable, but yes using standard attachment points is an advantage.
The chirp was/is totally a hardware issue that was only partly mitigated with a software restriction, but I like how the XU4 has a Q option for both use cases.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby crashoverride » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:35 am

elatllat wrote:The chirp was/is totally a hardware issue that was only partly mitigated with a software restriction

The software was not set to start the motor at a high enough PWM rate to overcome its own inertia. Further compounding the issue is what I believe to be a design flaw with the Linux thermal management implementation: motors should be started at full power and reduced to the desired level. Starting a fan (motor) at a low power causes increased power consumption as it fights to overcome its inertia.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:39 am

crashoverride wrote:The "wrong side" of the board for an ARM SBC is the bottom. Boards that correctly use the top side for thermal solutions enjoy far greater market share


Thank you. Now I start to understand that Windows is technically superior compared to Linux (since market share)

The 'SoC on the wrong side of the PCB' thing started as usual with the Raspberry Pi as a lot of other bad ideas (like powering with Micro USB). In the past Hardkernel was more smart and had the SoC on the right side (bottom -- but you may be surprised that we live in a world where we can rotate stuff by 180° -- it's an amazing world!)

This is something called ODROID-U2: https://www.hardkernel.com/main/product ... 5341370451

Image
Image

SoC on the bottom side as only reasonable choice to be combined with a great enclosure allowing for efficient cooling (and hey, guess what -- things can be rotated and the bottom becomes the top).

BTW: A good heatsink designed to allow for great passive cooling can always be combined with a fan -- no rocket science involved. But fansinks like on ODROID-XU4 or N1 are no good examples of this since they provide only good cooling in active mode.

Anyway: our whole discussion is useless as always since Hardkernel has already designed something for sure. And I really hope they chose a SoC that is not too boring for my use cases which requires PCIe: https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/Knowled ... v8_SoCs.md

If this thing has PCIe I hope they do not waste it as with their N1 design (based on weird assumptions only attaching an ASM1061 to provide two slow SATA ports) and make PCIe somewhat useable. And then the question is: how to access those PCIe lanes if the SoC is both powerful and on the wrong PCB side (the upper as you call it). A powerful SoC needs appropriate heat dissipation and then you can already forget about any sort of HATs or add-ons (see the crappy PoE HAT for the Raspberry Pi 3 B+ as a 'great' example)
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby crashoverride » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:58 am

tkaiser wrote:The 'SoC on the wrong side of the PCB' thing started as usual with the Raspberry Pi

I believe you are mistakenly conflating separate issues into this. The original RPI and XU4 have package-on-package (PoP) RAM. The RAM is physically attached to the top of the SoC. This prevents a thermal solution from directly cooling the SoC as the heat is first transferred through the PoP.

Since heat rises, placing a thermal solution on the bottom will trap heat radiating it through the entire board (same way an oven works). This does not happen when the SoC is correctly mounted on the top of the board.

tkaiser wrote:And I really hope they chose a SoC that is not too boring for my use cases which requires PCIe

My hope is that the board is useful beyond your use cases. I would like it to also be suitable for my use cases.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:28 am

crashoverride wrote:Since heat rises, placing a thermal solution on the bottom will trap heat radiating it through the entire board (same way an oven works). This does not happen when the SoC is correctly mounted on the top of the board.


Fortunately I live in a world where stuff can be rotated (I had some hope the pictures would give an idea already).

The whole SoC placement discussion boils down to SoC on the side where connectors and stuff are present (preventing HATs to be mounted if the SoC is powerful since heat dissipation becomes impossible) or on the opposite PCB side to be combined with a dedicated heatsink or any large metal surface (like an enclosure -- I try my luck again with a picture below). Attaching the SoC directly to a metal enclosure (or a part of it) is the only reliable way to dissipate heat out of an enclosure without a fan.

An ODROID U, U2, HC1, HC2 or MC1 can be operated in two conditions. The one shown on the right is both possible and recommended if it's about passive heat dissipation avoiding annoying fans:

Image
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby elatllat » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:51 am

tkaiser, maybe crashoverride is just not having the best day because I don't think he's intentionally trolling with his just beside the point comments.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:51 am

ASword wrote:I would have thought that what makes a good heatsink would be intuitively obvious, but apparently it ain't so.


Yeah, me being a total hardware noob I was excited when I first saw the NanoPi M4 heatsink pictures months ago @elatilat posted above. Same when another RK3399 thingy was announced ('Renegade Elite' also using a huge aluminium heatsink with high thermal mass) and then also with NanoPi NEO4.

But by looking closer and doing some tests combined with monitoring I learned the lesson. What looks nice and sufficient performs not that great -- at least with high sustained loads. Still hoping for Hardkernel doing heat dissipation on the N2 in a way that it works both passively and active (no crappy fansink please as default)
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby crashoverride » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:57 am

elatllat wrote:maybe crashoverride is just not having the best day

tkaiser wrote:What looks nice and sufficient performs not that great -- at least with high sustained loads.

I said it was a bad design choice and board were made proving its a bad design choice. Why should N2 repeat the same failed design choice of incorrectly mounting the heatsink on the bottom?

Show me the thread where bottom mounted proves itself to be the superior method that is claimed. Otherwise, I do not see the point in alienating a large customer base with giant, proprietary metal heatsinks.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:58 am

crashoverride wrote:The original RPI and XU4 have package-on-package (PoP) RAM. The RAM is physically attached to the top of the SoC. This prevents a thermal solution from directly cooling the SoC as the heat is first transferred through the PoP.


I see. ODROID HC1, HC2 and MC1 are all stupid ideas since they use the same PoP RAM Exynos 5422 as on XU4 and heat dissipation can't work (while it works great in reality) :D
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:01 am

crashoverride wrote:Why should N2 repeat the same failed design choice of incorrectly mounting the heatsink on the bottom?


You're talking about ODROID U, U2, HC1, HC2 and MC1 now? Those failed Hardkernel designs? :D
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby crashoverride » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:16 am

tkaiser wrote:You're talking about ODROID U, U2, HC1, HC2 and MC1 now?

I can say without hesitation that I do not currently use any of those products.

So again:
crashoverride wrote:Show me the thread where bottom mounted proves itself to be the superior method that is claimed. Otherwise, I do not see the point in alienating a large customer base with giant, proprietary metal heatsinks.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby nobe » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:28 am

@tkaiser

i agree with you on this, passive cooling seems easy at start but it's indeed a trap.


one of the things i learned from spending a lot of time in a french fanless forum is that evenly spreading the heat across the radiator fins can be very important for optimizing heat dissipation from then fins to the air (usually heatpipes are used for this in the x86 world).

also, when your tests show that placing the radiator on top or on bottom doesn't really make a difference, it might mean that there is too much thermal resistance somewhere in the transport part of the cooling (i make a difference between 'heat transport from soc to radiator fins' and 'heat dissipation from the fins to the air' in a cooling system).

lastly, about the thermal paste : while i know that it's more efficient than a thermal pad, i also understand why a company would prefer using pads.
let's say a clueless user very poorly apply thermal paste, then he might short his board and there are risk a permanently damaging it.
that's not a good thing for any company (dealing with rma requests, clueless user being at fault but slandering the company in internet forums)
most of this can easily be avoided by sending a electrically non conductive thermal pad to their customers.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:40 am

crashoverride wrote:
tkaiser wrote:You're talking about ODROID U, U2, HC1, HC2 and MC1 now?

I can say without hesitation that I do not currently use any of those products.


Do these products exist then? Is it possible that Exynos 5422 (PoP RAM thingy preventing to mount it at the bottom since 'heat rises' according to your theories) has been used by Hardkernel in the wrong way? :D

crashoverride wrote:So again


LOL, please not. I think almost everyone here got it that the below are 4 totally different topics:

* SoC on the appropriate PCB side or not regardless of heatsink approach
* heatsink with high thermal mass or not (the latter being obviously the better variant)
* heatsink design in a way that both passive mode (convection only) and active mode (adding a fan) works
* RPi form factor or not

My hope is that Hardkernel allows for efficient passive heat dissipation with the new board (optionally allowing for a fan for those users who love fans for whatever reasons). The fansink attempts on XU4 and N1 were counterproductive since crappy heat dissipation when the fan was not running. Such a design is awful since it's possible to provide a heatsink option that works great with and also without a fan.

If there's PCIe or other interesting high speed interfaces to be used with HATs providing additional functionality then I really hope the SoC is on the other PCB side than pin headers since otherwise heat dissipation won't work.

And I honestly don't care about the used form factor at all as long as no RPi mistakes are copied.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby crashoverride » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:45 am

Your constant deflections do not detract from your failure to provide any evidence of your claims. In fact, the evidence you provided refutes your claims.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:49 am

nobe wrote:lastly, about the thermal paste : while i know that it's more efficient than a thermal pad, i also understand why a company would prefer using pads.


Me as well. I'm so bad at hardware that I always fear destroying things when I touch this area. That's why I used still parts of thermal pads as an insulator when starting to play with thermal compound.

Maybe the 'Hardkernel way' is the best one. IIRC they also used rather inefficient thermal pads years ago just to learn about the efficiency issues and switching to thermal compound already applied at the factory then. Though there were issues with thermal paste not being applied correctly at the factory (I had some success 'massaging' one of my HC2 to get better heat dissipation and there are a few forum threads dealing with this issue).

And again: that's my hope: A N2 shipping with a heatsink that works with no additional fan due to size and fin spacing directly attached to the SoC with thermal compound at the factory. For those who consider themselves power users adding a fan option.

But of course all these discussions are useless since if Hardkernel folks have not finished a N2 design already months ago we won't see this thing in 2018 any more.
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