[SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware removed ?

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[SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware removed ?

Unread postby Frickler42 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:11 am

Hi
I'm just curious about the fact that the link to the firmware is missing on hardkernels wiki. :oops:

https://wiki.odroid.com/odroid_go/emula ... are_update

Any idea where to get the file ?

cya
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Re: Why was the link to the emulator firmware removed ?

Unread postby rooted » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:30 am

It says TBD (To Be Divulged)
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Re: Why was the link to the emulator firmware removed ?

Unread postby Frickler42 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:02 am

Sorry, but what does that mean ?
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Re: Why was the link to the emulator firmware removed ?

Unread postby rooted » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:39 am

Frickler42 wrote:Sorry, but what does that mean ?
It means they will post it when ready.
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Re: Why was the link to the emulator firmware removed ?

Unread postby nullsmack » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:31 am

BTW, where's the source for the firmware with the loader and the emulators? It'd be nice to be able to extend that for more things.
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Re: Why was the link to the emulator firmware removed ?

Unread postby crashoverride » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:51 am

The firmware download links were updated in the wiki:
https://wiki.odroid.com/odroid_go/emulator/firmware_update

The source code can be found here:
https://github.com/OtherCrashOverride/go-play
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby nullsmack » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:16 pm

Which code produces the bootloader.bin, partitions.bin and springboard-go.bin files?
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby crashoverride » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:40 pm

bootloader.bin and paritions.bin are produced by the esp-idf code. springboard-go.bin is not open source.
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby nullsmack » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:47 pm

What is springboard-go.bin anyways?
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby mad_ady » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:50 pm

@crashoverride: I take it you've been working in secret with HK on this project for a while?
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby crashoverride » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:05 am

nullsmack wrote:What is springboard-go.bin anyways?

It is the application that provides a menu for selecting a ROM from the SD card. Its sole purpose is to copy the ROM file from the SD card to internal flash.

mad_ady wrote:I take it you've been working in secret with HK on this project for a while?

Its also possible that I simply have a time machine. I can not confirm nor deny either.
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby mad_ady » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:25 am

If you're controlling the launcher, then you can also modify it to execute user code that is not a game - so that users can write their own hello world code without replacing the launcher and have a key combination to return to the menu. Is this planned?
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby crashoverride » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:55 am

mad_ady wrote:Is this planned?

There are currently no plans to support this. However, it was a scenario that was anticipated.

The partition table is as follows:
Code: Select all
# Name,   Type, SubType, Offset,  Size
nvs,      data,     nvs,   0x9000,   0x4000
otadata,  data,     ota,   0xd000,   0x2000
phy_init, data,     phy,   0xf000,   0x1000
firmware,  app, factory,  0x10000, 0x0F0000
app_0,       0,   ota_0, 0x100000, 0x080000
app_1,       0,   ota_1, 0x180000, 0x080000
app_2,       0,   ota_2, 0x200000, 0x080000
app_3,       0,   ota_3, 0x280000, 0x0A0000
storage,  data,  spiffs, 0x320000, 0x0E0000
data_0,   0x40,    0x00, 0x400000, 0x400000
data_1,   0x40,    0x01, 0x800000, 0x400000
data_2,   0x40,    0x02, 0xc00000, 0x400000


Springboard is in the "firmware" partition, NES is in app_0, GB/GBC is in app_1, SMS/GG is in app_2. app_3 (originally planned for user apps) is reserved for future use.

When a ROM file is selected, Springboard copies it to one of the data_* slots (round robin). It then sets the appropriate app_* partition as active and reboots. When an emulator is done, it sets "firmware" as the active partition and reboots.

Using esp-idf, the output of build/yourapp.bin can be flashed to one of the app_* slots and will replace the emulator at that location. The constraint is that applications are limited to a maximum of 512K (0x80000) bytes. Since there is no tool support (make) or Arduino IDE support for this, there are currently no plans to support it.
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby mad_ady » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:19 am

So, there's no way to easily flash user code to a specific offset, is that what you're saying? Or you can't control application size?

Can the user app be a loader that flashes user selected code to a data* slot, marks that as bootable and reboots? The user code could mark firmware as bootable again to return to the loader. Can the esp execute code in the data partition? Currently it's used as data, since the code is in the emulator itself.

If a custom loader is possible, then it would take care of flashing user code at the appropriate address. But I wonder if it would need to relocate all pointers and have it rewrite them to addresses relative to the start of the data partition. Or is location in flash irrelevant when the program is loaded?

Forgive me for being an inquisitive noob...
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby crashoverride » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:56 am

mad_ady wrote:So, there's no way to easily flash user code to a specific offset, is that what you're saying? Or you can't control application size?

To flash an app to specific offset, the following command is used:
Code: Select all
esptool.py --chip esp32 --port "/dev/ttyUSB0" --baud 921600 write_flash -fs detect --flash_freq 40m --flash_mode qio 0x100000 build/yourapp.bin

Replace 0x100000 with the partition address from the previous table. If the "yourapp.bin" is larger than 512K, it will blindly overwrite into the next partition causing issues.

This is contrast to the normal method:
Code: Select all
make flash


mad_ady wrote:Can the user app be a loader that flashes user selected code to a data* slot, marks that as bootable and reboots? The user code could mark firmware as bootable again to return to the loader. Can the esp execute code in the data partition? Currently it's used as data, since the code is in the emulator itself.

The esp-idf only supports booting partitions that are of type "app/ota_*". You would need to modify the SDK to support the custom data partition types as bootable. However, code can be executed from the data region using the esp-idf flash memory mapping APIs.

mad_ady wrote:If a custom loader is possible, then it would take care of flashing user code at the appropriate address. But I wonder if it would need to relocate all pointers and have it rewrite them to addresses relative to the start of the data partition. Or is location in flash irrelevant when the program is loaded?

All boot/flash mechanisms used by Springboard are provided by the esp-idf SDK. Anyone can write a loader to do whatever they want. The ESP32 has a MMU interface to flash which means pointer relocation is not needed. The constraints of Springboard are due to its specific purpose of selecting/flashing ROM data and starting the emulators in a convenient fashion. Due to the limitations of an embedded environment, it is not practical to make Springboard a general purpose loader. A new loader should be designed and coded for that purpose.

mad_ady wrote:Forgive me for being an inquisitive noob...

The ODROID-GO is a development board. Questions are expected and welcome.
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby lephro » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:15 am

Very sad to read that the firmware is closed source on a Open DROID anniversary device. Now everybody has to reinvent the wheel, instead of having a solid to base to work with. Iam really disappointed,... its like a huge FU to the open-source community. Just wanted to let that out. :x :(
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby crashoverride » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:10 am

lephro wrote:Very sad to read that the firmware is closed source on a Open DROID anniversary device.

The ESP32 has other closed source components you should be aware of. The Wifi and Bluetooth stack are also closed source (by Espressif):
https://github.com/espressif/esp32-wifi-lib
https://github.com/espressif/esp32-bt-lib

lephro wrote:Now everybody has to reinvent the wheel

Only one person has to reinvent the wheel if they open source their work.

lephro wrote:its like a huge FU to the open-source community.

The springboard is a trivial component. It is not required for operation of the device and all the interfacing it uses is open source:
https://github.com/OtherCrashOverride/go-play/tree/master/odroid-go-common/components/odroid

The "hard part" was getting the emulators (all open source) working and performing well (several months). Springboard was mostly complete in a couple of days.
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby mad_ady » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:08 pm

As far as I know you, you've always released even complex code as open source without asking for financial gain.
So, since this is closed it must be due to a valid reason and was not decided in a whim.
In order to get off your back/lawn help us get closure (like odroid with the n1) and tell us why it can't be open source (you don't have to be specific). Options include:
1. Open sourcing it would break an NDA
2. Open sourcing it would violate Intellectual Property, or it has closed source assets inside
3. Code quality/legibility would bring eternal shame to @crashoverride's family if public
4. Keeping it closed would prevent the appearance of clones from other vendors.
5. Keeping it closed prevents SkyNet from becoming sentient.
6. All of the above
7. Other (please specify)

I guess the biggest benefit from having an open launcher would be themes/skins and maybe launching custom code without reflashing everything.
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby rooted » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:46 pm

It's almost certainly #4
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby mad_ady » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:16 pm

Why? They can simply copy and distribute the binary. Or is that something you can sue for?
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby nullsmack » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:23 pm

I think you guys are overthinking this just a bit. The operations of the program have been described well enough that someone else could probably build it from scratch. It's not that big of a part of the system to be so distraught over it not being open source.
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby crashoverride » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:10 am

mad_ady wrote:3. Code quality/legibility would bring eternal shame to @crashoverride's family if public

:lol:

rooted wrote:It's almost certainly #4

ODROID-GO is the product of hard work from many people. Unlike modern ARM SBCs, there is no "reference design" where the manufacture does all the work and the OEM just customizes it. Instead, its more like the Apple I/II days where end-to-end design took place. Should someone wish to clone it, it is not unreasonable they should have to at least put some effort into doing it.


On a personal note, it concerns me as an open source developer that there are fewer and fewer producers of original code. There is far more "giving of fish" than "learning to fish".
give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.
[It is more worthwhile to teach someone to do something (for themselves) than to do it for them (on an ongoing basis).]

Springboard is one of the most trivial components of device operation: it displays a menu and copies file data from the SD card. Code to drive the LCD is commonly available, code to read a file from the SD card is standard in the esp-idf, code to read the joystick/buttons is posted to my github. All that is required is to "glue" them all together in a coherent fashion with some custom code. Anyone with average Arduino skills that tried to do it should be able to achieve the goal.
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby mad_ady » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:22 am

So it's closed source as a challenge, without any other reason? I didn't see that one coming...
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby rooted » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:26 am

I don't think it's a big deal and I'm a huge proponent of OSS.

I'm a mediocre Java developer, but I do know where crashoverride is coming from. I agree in this modern world of "give it to me now" mentality there needs to be more innovation and less rebadging and repacking. I know because I'm just as guilty of it as the next guy.

When you create something from scratch there is so much more freedom. I remember when I was younger writing an application in Visual Basic that was 65,000 lines of pure Windows API and the pride I felt when I released it. I miss that.

Now I jump in GitHub with the mentality of "why reinvent the wheel?" :) :(
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby mad_ady » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:13 am

Whenever one needs to implement something and can't find the code for it, then they write original code. It's fun, but can also be tedious and error prone and can cause frustration if you just want results. So I'm all for reuse. I've reinvented the wheel too many times only to find out later that there was a better implementation available. But for learning purposes I agree that one needs to reinvent many square wheels...
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby crashoverride » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:09 am

As of today's update, Springboard does not even read data from the SD card anymore. Its only a menu now.

For those curious about the 'complexity' of reading data from the SD card, the code is now available here:
https://github.com/OtherCrashOverride/g ... d_sdcard.c
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby rooted » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:11 am

crashoverride wrote:As of today's update, Springboard does not even read data from the SD card anymore. Its only a menu now.

For those curious about the 'complexity' of reading data from the SD card, the code is now available here:
https://github.com/OtherCrashOverride/g ... d_sdcard.c
:)
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby nullsmack » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:36 am

crashoverride wrote:As of today's update, Springboard does not even read data from the SD card anymore. Its only a menu now.

For those curious about the 'complexity' of reading data from the SD card, the code is now available here:
https://github.com/OtherCrashOverride/g ... d_sdcard.c


Nice!
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby lephro » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:47 pm

I would call myself a good developer. I can write pretty well C and most other languages (maybe expect this perl / python stuff). I dont need to learn to fish anymore.
But i have to work every day. In my spare time i have "a lot" of projects. Everytime i need to change something or want to add something i can just take the sourcecode... change my stuff.. and iam done. With the Odroid-Go i simply cant. I had to get deeper knowledge of the framework you provided as well as deeper knowledge of the esp32 architecture itself. etc. etc. I would end up spending a lot of my free time just to implement something that is basicly already there,... and i dont know if my implementation would be as good as the springboard, because i simply dont have that deep knowledge about all that odroid-go stuff.

I understand that there are driver related things that are closed source.. like bluetooth stacks or graphic card drivers... since there might be potentially some stuff you dont want your competitors to see. But in case of the scoreboard, i dont see a real point. I see that somebody put some work into it and iam thankfull he did. But this is an Open-Droid device. I should be able to take the sources, recompile it and have the same thing as i had before.
From developers for developers... ... nice slogan.

crashoverride wrote:Springboard is one of the most trivial components of device operation: it displays a menu and copies file data from the SD card. Code to drive the LCD is commonly available, code to read a file from the SD card is standard in the esp-idf, code to read the joystick/buttons is posted to my github. All that is required is to "glue" them all together in a coherent fashion with some custom code. Anyone with average Arduino skills that tried to do it should be able to achieve the goal.


But not everybody has the time to do it. Especially if there is already a good implementation that comes with the OPEN-droid (aniversary) device. But its closed Source. Wp. Sorry but ive never seen something unreasonable like this. If anyone with average Arduino skills can reproduce it, whats the point in keeping it closed source?

If somebody does an even better thing and releases it open source; What will be the point in keeping it closed? Clones can be already made with the binary. Iam getting the feeling that the scoreboard contains stuff that actually would bring you in trouble if you release it. Because i cant imagine any other reason.

Btw:
Come to the handheld and retropie group on facebook and you will see, that there are way better handhelds with way advanced software that is completely open source.
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby crashoverride » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:50 pm

lephro wrote:From developers for developers... ... nice slogan.

There may be some misunderstanding. Springboard has nothing to do with development or developers. It is a menu program provided for convenience. It is not key or integral to development in any form or fashion.

In support of developers, the open source emulators are all buildable and functional as stand alone esp-idf projects. The do not require the Springboard menu program to be present. Developers can use them as they would any other open source esp-idf project. When developing for ESP32, a project is built and then flashed to a development kit. The ODROID-GO provides the same expectations that developers have of any other ESP32 based devkits.

Nothing is being hidden, subverted, or denied. Springboard is entirely authored by me and HardKernel provides it to their customers free of charge. As the copyright holder, I have not authorized or licensed its use on any clone hardware. It is entirely optional software. The development experience and the hardware are all fully functional without it. The open source APIs provided are not required or intended for developer use. Springboard is a menu, not a framework.
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby lephro » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:02 am

Lets be honest: Everybody who buys an ordoid-go is going to use it as an emulator platform. 99% will use the springboard as the base, because right now there is no alternative.

The misunderstanding is on your site: The components stuff you provided can be used as a framework. I know what the springboard does. And because i know it i know that there would be no point keeping it secert other than a) greed or b) you used some unlicesend stuff yourself. Both put a very bad light on you. Its a shame, taking things from the community, like the emulators and such which are open source and without them you wouldnt be able to do the project. But still you keep your pieces secret. Iam not even sure that this is ok under the licesenes they are published. This is the only devkit i know which get shipped with close source software, that uses open source as base. This is exactly the opposite of what the main though behind open droid systems was. There should be no closed sources. From developers to developers. But you dont seem to understand that. I call you greedy or a thief.

Go ahead with your FU attitute.. i hope karma does the rest... ...i wont support this, will tell people not to and hope that everybody else does the same.... open-droid aniversary for developers ... but sources are closed. Hahahah... nice joke
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby mad_ady » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:58 am

Actually, if you look @crashoverride's github projects you will see that he did lots of stuff directly as open source without asking for compensation (like c1/c2play, c2enc, c2cap, etc). So being greedy or a thief are not attributes compatible with the crashoverride we know.
In the end it's his work and if he has his reasons to keep it closed (I suspect he doesn't want other manufacturers to take it and sell it with their products), then it's his choice and we need to respect it. This doesn't mean somebody won't release an open source clone of it at some point in the future - it's not like it's a bootloader that needs to be signed by crashoverride in order to run on the hardware...
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby crashoverride » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:24 am

lephro wrote:Its a shame, taking things from the community, like the emulators and such which are open source and without them you wouldnt be able to do the project. But still you keep your pieces secret. Iam not even sure that this is ok under the licesenes they are published.

All the emulators are licensed by their respective authors under the GPL2. In compliance with GPL2, the source code modifications for ESP32 are provided. The code provided is the exact same code used to create the binary objects with the only external dependency being the ESP32 SDK. Furthermore, there are no restrictions on the the use or replacement of the binaries on the device (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization). As a developer, license compliance (open or closed) has alway been and always will be of great importance to me. There is nothing 'taken' from any community or author. The enhancement added to each project are publicly available for anyone to use on any hardware under the same GPL2. To be clear, "the project" was the emulator enhancements, not the menu program.

lephro wrote: I call you greedy or a thief.

I do not sell the hardware/software nor do I receive any profits from sales. I do not even have donation links on any of my projects. As a member of the Odroid community, I often share projects that I do for personal use with the public. Therefore, I am uncertain what the basis for this allegation is intended to be.

lephro wrote:b) you used some unlicesend stuff yourself

As stated previously, it is a trivial menu program that I authored. It does not link to, execute, or contain any 3rd party code from any other source. The menu program simply stores the filename selected, sets a flash partition as active, and reboots the ESP32. The presence of the menu program is not required for operation. All the emulators are can be built and used without it. The menu program was written by me for my personal use. It is provided for use on the ODROID-GO as a convenience to others. For those that do not want this free gift, simply compile and flash the provided open source emulation code.
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby rooted » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:38 am

@crashoverride

You can't please everyone as you know. Your work is appreciated by 99.9% of those who know and use it.

Disagreeing about how and what you release is fine, calling you a thief is just wrong.
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby crashoverride » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:50 am

Even if you cured cancer, someone would be upset because you didn't cure a different disease instead.

Disagreements are inevitable when dealing internationally with different cultures and norms. The premise of the argument is that since ODROID-GO is "open", only open source software is allowed on it. This contrasts with my cultural values that state everyone is free to decide for themselves whether to run closed source software or not. Therefore, both closed and open choices are available. I find the argument further ironic considering closed source ROMs will likely be used with the emulators.
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby lephro » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:32 pm

Its the offical firmware for the device. Its closed source. Saying anything else would be repeating myself.

I have to say that i also appreciated all work beeing done and released. But if you provide a firmware for a open device, the firmware should be open, too. ...
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby nullsmack » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:02 am

Give it a rest lephro. It's totally out of line for you to say crashoverride is greedy or a thief for not wanting to release the code. They've described the code's functions multiple times now and it sounds utterly trivial. It is simply a menu and does nothing that can't be reproduced by someone else. The community doesn't need that source code.
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Re: [SOLVED] Why was the link to the emulator firmware remov

Unread postby ar560 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:57 am

We can reverse engineer springboard :)
Or write interface like on EZ-Flash 4, with tree file system.
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