New Single Board Computer M1

elatllat · Post by **elatllat** » Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:08 pm

That's one classy SBC.

_linux_ · Post by **_linux_** » Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:26 pm

Dear Hardkernel

First of all I think the new M1 is a very interesting Board. One thing was very suprising to me though. Why didn't you use the Realtek RTL8125B or an even faster LAN interface for a new board like this?

Best regards

_linux_

tkaiser · Post by **tkaiser** » Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:56 pm

_linux_ wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:26 pm
Why didn't you use the Realtek RTL8125B or an even faster LAN interface for a new board like this?

Gigabit Ethernet is using RK3568's RGMII interface. So asides PCIe Gen3 there's only three SerDes lanes left for PCIe Gen2, SATA and USB3 and Hardkernel chose 1 x SATA and 2 x USB3 so there's no PCIe lane left for an RTL8125B. Just look at the diagram here: https://www.cnx-software.com/2020/12/16 ... omparison/

Compared to Amlogic SoCs RK3568 is an I/O monster. But a lot of the high-speed stuff is muxed and behind Combo PHYs so the board designer has to choose wisely which target audience to address.

rooted · Post by **rooted** » Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:47 pm

Haven't seen you in a while Thomas, hope you have been well.

hominoid · Post by **hominoid** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:57 am

Ditto on the community comments. Looks like a very nice addition to the HK lineup with lots of new peripherals to get people excited. Regarding a higher end SBC, yes please!

rooted · Post by **rooted** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:21 am

hominoid wrote:Ditto on the community comments. Looks like a very nice addition to the HK lineup with lots of new peripherals to get people excited. Regarding a higher end SBC, yes please!

Will be looking forward to seeing what you come up with enclosure wise.

hominoid · Post by **hominoid** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:24 am

rooted wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:21 am
Will be looking forward to seeing what you come up with enclosure wise.

Me too

...I'm working with the Vu7c and C4 right now so a similar configuration to the Odorid-M1 and Vu8m combination.

specs · Post by **specs** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:17 am

Looks like a nice improvement compared to the C4.
Reasons to look for the N2 instead of the C4 were faster, better GPU, SPI, better heatsink better input voltage range (barely) .

The difference between M1 and N2(+) reduces to power consumption and performance (with the SSD and 8GB being a nice extra).
Especially the heatsink might be a large plus of the M1 compared to the C4.

Did you measure the power use of the 4GB type or the 8GB type?
I can't wait to test the board with an SSD, since the eMMC is a weak point of the N2(+) and the SSD over USB solutions I have seen cannot convince me.

L67GS · Post by **L67GS** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:46 am

I'm assuming ADC inputs are 0-1.8v based on the 1.8v reference pin. Are the GPIO pins 3.3v? And which UART cable? 3.3v or 1.8v like XU4?
I don't see it listed in the wiki but it's probably there.

mctom · Post by **mctom** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:11 am

I think you may be right.
Wiki's "Expansion connectors" page says:

All signals on the expansion headers are 3.3V except for the analog input signal.

I'd be really surprised if UART worked with different voltage levels, but better safe than sorry.

EDIT:

specs wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:17 am
Did you measure the power use of the 4GB type or the 8GB type?

Probably doesn't matter because it was a CPU stress test.
CPU remains 80% idle in desktop applications anyway.. For my calculations I'm assuming 1.9 - 2W avg power consumption.
Which easily yields some 3.5h of operation off a single 18650 cell

L67GS · Post by **L67GS** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:33 am

I found where it says UART console is 3.3v

Edit: whoa, I just noticed the 5 PWM outputs. If a bunch of (fellow) nerds were standing around talking at a robotics convention and saying "it would be awesome if someone made a board like that" the M1 would be that thing they're hoping for.

Post by **odroid** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:10 am

All of the M1 GPIO & UART ports interface level is 3.3Volt.

Also note that M1 default UART console speed is 1.5Mbps which is quite different from other ODROID boards' 115200(~0.1Mbps).
As far as I heard, some of USB-UART bridge chips might not support that high baud rate while the CP2102N/CP2104 on our USB-UART cable kit can support up to 3Mbps.
https://wiki.odroid.com/accessory/devel ... _connector

Post by **odroid** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 9:13 am

specs wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 31, 2022 5:17 am
Did you measure the power use of the 4GB type or the 8GB type?

We've measured that. The difference was near zero as mctom guessed.

rooted · Post by **rooted** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:57 am

Could you better describe what this means, I've tried to understand what this means but I don't?

Does it mean one cannot use OTG and USB3.0 HOST #1 at the same time?

Exclusive functionality of the USB
In the left picture, the arrows point at each USB port. Let me explain how they have their behaviar.
1. USB3.0 HOST #2
No effect on MicroUSB2.0 Device mode
2. USB3.0 HOST #1
When MicroUSB2.0 Device is connected, this port will be opened.
3. MicroUSB2.0 Device Only
This port can only be used in device mode
If connected to both USB3.0 HOST #1 and MicroUSB2.0 Device Only, MicroUSB2.0 Device will work only.

Post by **odroid** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:04 pm

The description looks understandable for me.
One of the USB 3.0 host ports shares a root interface with the Micro-USB 2.0 device port.
You have to use them exclusively.
It is one of the big differences from other previous ODROID boards.

If you can make a more understandable expressions with your native English, let us know and we will update the wiki pages.

rooted · Post by **rooted** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:10 pm

It's #3 that makes it confusing, it says OTG can only be used if connected to both ports? I'm not complaining at all, I just don't understand this part.

MicroUSB2.0 Device Only
This port can only be used in device mode
If connected to both USB3.0 HOST #1 and MicroUSB2.0 Device

Post by **odroid** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:25 pm

The Micro-USB 2.0 port has no dual-role (device + host) feature.
It works in device mode only.

I still hope you can give me a more clearly understandable description since many other users might have a difficult time to understand our explanation as you.

rooted · Post by **rooted** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:36 pm

Oh it isn't OTG at all, it's just an additional USB 2.0 port not like OTG on something like the C4?

Soon as I understand I will write an English description

mad_ady · Post by **mad_ady** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:40 pm

So, to clarify how the usb ports work - is this description accurate?
1. If you leave the bottom usb3 port empty, the microusb port won't work even if it's connected to some host
2. You can use the bottom usb3 port independent of the microusb port.

If this is correct, then the following description would be more clear:
"The microusb port does not support usb-otg and only works if you have something plugged in the bottom usb3 port."

About what "something" means, does it have to be a valid usb device (with data lines), or does a dumb charger cable without data lines count? Is the cable sufficient if left unconnected at the other end (e.g. just the plug suffices?). I guess not, but I guess others will ask.
Since the port is mostly used in Android, does it force users to keep the bottom usb3 port plugged in at all times to keep the port available, or can Android handle the fact that the port may be active just sometimes?

brad · Post by **brad** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:49 pm

The datasheet (p16) suggests that OTG might be supported by the SOC, ie USB3 dual role mode?

beta2 · Post by **beta2** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:18 pm

Congratulation @odroid for this new one. Very nice job and very nice SBC. Well done.

phaseshifter · Post by **phaseshifter** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:19 pm

hello brad ....

tobetter · Post by **tobetter** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:20 pm

mad_ady wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 31, 2022 2:40 pm
So, to clarify how the usb ports work - is this description accurate?
1. If you leave the bottom usb3 port empty, the microusb port won't work even if it's connected to some host
2. You can use the bottom usb3 port independent of the microusb port.

If this is correct, then the following description would be more clear:
"The microusb port does not support usb-otg and only works if you have something plugged in the bottom usb3 port."

USB 3.0 (bottom) will be deactivated when micro USB 2.0 port is connected to a USB 2.0 host (PC). Since USB 3.0 (bottom) port and micro USB 2.0 port shares a USB 2.0 data lines (D+/D-), this makes USB 3.0 device enumeration be failed when USB 2.0 device is connected to the micro USB 2.0 port, therefore ODROID-M1 has a USB 2.0 switch.

About what "something" means, does it have to be a valid usb device (with data lines), or does a dumb charger cable without data lines count? Is the cable sufficient if left unconnected at the other end (e.g. just the plug suffices?). I guess not, but I guess others will ask.
Since the port is mostly used in Android, does it force users to keep the bottom usb3 port plugged in at all times to keep the port available, or can Android handle the fact that the port may be active just sometimes?

As long as VBUS on micro USB 2.0 port is not supplied, the USB 2.0 switch won't make USB 3.0 (bottom) stop working. If connect USB dumb charger to the micro USB port, that supplies VBUS to ODROID-M1 which has no meaning, USB 2.0 (bottom) will be disappeared.

The micro USB 2.0 port will be mostly used by Android developer for ADB/Fastboot or one who used to use OTG port for USB 2.0 with ODROID-N2, for example. When you need to connect a USB 2.0 device (type A) using OTG cable, it's fair enough to connect it to USB 2.0 hosts or USB 3.0 hosts on ODROID-M1.

mctom · Post by **mctom** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:15 pm

How about this wording:
Micro USB 2.0 port takes precedence over bottom USB 3.0 port. Whenever micro USB 2.0 port is in use, bottom USB 3.0 port is disabled.

Minus grammar errors, should be clear enough?

mad_ady · Post by **mad_ady** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:53 pm

mctom wrote:How about this wording:
Micro USB 2.0 port takes precedence over bottom USB 3.0 port. Whenever micro USB 2.0 port is in use, bottom USB 3.0 port is disabled.

Minus grammar errors, should be clear enough?

+1

_linux_ · Post by **_linux_** » Thu Mar 31, 2022 10:24 pm

tkaiser wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:56 pm

_linux_ wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:26 pm
Why didn't you use the Realtek RTL8125B or an even faster LAN interface for a new board like this?
Gigabit Ethernet is using RK3568's RGMII interface. So asides PCIe Gen3 there's only three SerDes lanes left for PCIe Gen2, SATA and USB3 and Hardkernel chose 1 x SATA and 2 x USB3 so there's no PCIe lane left for an RTL8125B. Just look at the diagram here: https://www.cnx-software.com/2020/12/16 ... omparison/

Compared to Amlogic SoCs RK3568 is an I/O monster. But a lot of the high-speed stuff is muxed and behind Combo PHYs so the board designer has to choose wisely which target audience to address.

Thanks mate, highly appreciated!

domih · Post by **domih** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:22 am

rooted wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:35 pm

L67GS wrote:That didn't take long, 4 or 5 write-ups and blog posts already. And not a chance any of those people have put hands on one.
https://www.cnx-software.com/2022/03/29 ... 568b2-sbc/
I always tip off Jean Luc (cnxsoft) about new Odroid products, but I think someone else told him about this or he seen it himself as someone falsely reported fishing and his DNS got temporarily shutdown yesterday and my emails to him bounced back and the site itself was down for a while.

cnx-software.com is unreachable again this morning (at least from US California). I guess it is a repeat of what happened earlier and Jean-Luc will get it sorted out again. Is there a crazy guy somewhere who really does not like this very useful site?

tkaiser · Post by **tkaiser** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:37 am

domih wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:22 am
cnx-software.com is unreachable again this morning

You need to add

Code: Select all

96.126.96.41    www.cnx-software.com

to your /etc/hosts file since the site is still available but only the DNS records are gone (again).

mctom · Post by **mctom** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 4:03 am

I imagine the whole HardKernel team is super busy and mega excited about the new release, BUT! I have a request

The SoC datasheet is understandably a limited version with just 62 pages.
Wiring Pi code on GitHub is outdated and has no M1 support yet..
I'd love to see gpio_default_check_program for M1, similar to those for N2, C2 and C4. Very useful tool and informative source code.

The bottom line is, with current state of knowledge I'm unable to drive GPIOs..

L67GS · Post by **L67GS** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:02 am

mctom wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:15 pm
How about this wording:
Micro USB 2.0 port takes precedence over bottom USB 3.0 port. Whenever micro USB 2.0 port is in use, bottom USB 3.0 port is disabled.

Minus grammar errors, should be clear enough?

"Due to shared resources, bottom USB 3 port and Micro USB 2.0 port cannot be used at the same time"

Telling "why" is more valuable than "how" imo.

tobetter · Post by **tobetter** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:47 am

mctom wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 01, 2022 4:03 am
The SoC datasheet is understandably a limited version with just 62 pages.
Wiring Pi code on GitHub is outdated and has no M1 support yet..
I'd love to see gpio_default_check_program for M1, similar to those for N2, C2 and C4. Very useful tool and informative source code.

The bottom line is, with current state of knowledge I'm unable to drive GPIOs..

WiringPi for ODROID-M1 will come soon and Github will be updated.
GPIOD will be supported as well.

zupet · Post by **zupet** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:06 am

I got the package. the post office dropped it early in the morning.

https://dn.odroid.com/RK3568/ODROID-M1/Ubuntu/

there is no download link at home page, but there is files at download server.

should I use petiboot network installation ?

L67GS · Post by **L67GS** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:07 am

Do we predict M1/8GB will be enough to run MIPI and ROS at the same time? Just curious

tobetter · Post by **tobetter** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:30 am

zupet wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:06 am
I got the package. the post office dropped it early in the morning.

https://dn.odroid.com/RK3568/ODROID-M1/Ubuntu/

there is no download link at home page, but there is files at download server.

Very fast...CONGRATULATION!!
The download links are in Wiki which is still being updated slowly.
https://wiki.odroid.com/odroid-m1/os_im ... u/20220318

should I use petiboot network installation ?

Petitboot fNetwork installation is not ready yet, but you can use Petitboot to flash the image via USB 2.0 device cable.

tobetter · Post by **tobetter** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:03 am

zupet wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:06 am
dimension of 3.5" hdd is 101.6mm x 147.0mm x 26.1mm
it will fit in 3.5" hdd slot.

I recalled that I had designed a model for ODROID-N2 earlier, now it's been modified for ODROID-M1 and it fits to 3.5" disk bay.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5336924

zupet · Post by **zupet** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:22 am

zupet wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:06 am
I got the package. the post office dropped it early in the morning.

https://dn.odroid.com/RK3568/ODROID-M1/Ubuntu/

there is no download link at home page, but there is files at download server.

should I use petiboot network installation ?

have problem powering M1.
if sdcard is inserted, it will not boot nor lit power LED.
without sdcard it boots petiboot corretly.
then I can insert sdcard and boot by rescan and select shown partition.

I had similar problem with HC4. it might be problem with 64gb scard.

I tested two 12V adapter and 15V from hardkernel. It was really frustrating that it might be bad one.

I didn't added M.1 or hdd yet.

tobetter · Post by **tobetter** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:24 am

zupet wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:22 am

zupet wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:06 am
I got the package. the post office dropped it early in the morning.

https://dn.odroid.com/RK3568/ODROID-M1/Ubuntu/

there is no download link at home page, but there is files at download server.

should I use petiboot network installation ?
have problem powering M1.
if sdcard is inserted, it will not boot and no power LED.
without sdcard it boots up and show petiboot menu.
I can insert sdcard and boot at this screen aby rescan and select shown partition.

I tested two 12V adapter and 15V from hardkernel. It was really frustrating that it might be bad one.

I didn't added M.1 or hdd yet.

Please do open your own thread, not here. I will follow up the issue.

zupet · Post by **zupet** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:33 am

tobetter wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 01, 2022 10:24 am
Please do open your own thread, not here. I will follow up the issue.

ok

mctom · Post by **mctom** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:20 pm

L67GS wrote: ↑
Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:02 am

mctom wrote: ↑
Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:15 pm
How about this wording:
Micro USB 2.0 port takes precedence over bottom USB 3.0 port. Whenever micro USB 2.0 port is in use, bottom USB 3.0 port is disabled.

Minus grammar errors, should be clear enough?
"Due to shared resources, bottom USB 3 port and Micro USB 2.0 port cannot be used at the same time"

Telling "why" is more valuable than "how" imo.

Yeah, but it doesn't say what will happen if you connect both. Other than that, I agree telling "why" is preferable.

mad_ady · Post by **mad_ady** » Fri Apr 01, 2022 4:02 pm

My M1 arrived as well! But it's nothing like the pictures!
Very funny joke, HardKernel - haha! What am I supposed to do with this?!

(obligatory April Fool's joke)

hc3fan · Post by **hc3fan** » Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:48 pm

This could have been a cool and useful device. Unfortunately you have made some decisions that makes it unusable for me:

odroid wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:45 am
ODROID-M1
However, since the SATA power port doesn’t have a 12Volt power rail, a separated external 12Volt SATA power supply is required to use a 3.5inch HDD.

Separate power supply is not an option.

odroid wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 29, 2022 5:26 pm
Right. The Metal case kit is not compatible with a SATA drive.
We have no plan to make other cases at this moment. Sorry about that.

A stable case including the HDD is required.

odroid wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:26 pm
Instead of that non-economical way, we thought an external SATA PSU (only several bucks) something like the following picture is a better solution.
sata_psu.png
We still believe (relatively) very few people are interested in using a mechanical disk these days and it is almost impossible to satisfy all the different use cases.

My use case is all about mechanical 3.5 HDDs and a second separate power supply is not an option, which makes this nice device totally useless.

odroid wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:45 am
Additional comments
Compared to other SBC manufacturers, our RK3568-based M1 board release is a little late.
However, we believe that developing a product offering that is more complete and convenient to use is much more important than the time to market.
Our SBC products that will be released in the future will need more time to launch, but we need to keep investing enough time and resources to make more useful and practical devices.

Another comment. Do you need a much more expensive ODROID board than M1?
Many people have been continuously asking for some high end models.
We have a couple of our own proto-type boards for internal development and evaluation.
We will be launching those models once we are ready to sell in Q4 or early next year if we will not cancel the projects.
If we meet any development, procurement, certification, or other unexpected issues, the schedule will inevitably be delayed a few more months at least.
Therefore, please be patient until our release announcement appears because we don’t want to misinform.

We still need a complete and convenient replacement for the HC-2 which design perfectly fits my use case. But it is outdated now. Many wishes for a similar updated device have been brought forward: viewtopic.php?f=93&t=38211

mad_ady · Post by **mad_ady** » Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:28 pm

Separate power supply is not an option.

I'm with you on this one. Thankfully, I think there's an easy fix - soldering a thick wire between 12V input from the M1's PSU to the 12V pin on the sata connector. The drawback is the drive will get 12V even when the SBC is powered off, and you're stuck to using only 12V PSUs.

Regarding a fitting case, I'm sure the community will come up with a 3d printable version, but it won't be like a hc2.
Anyway, because of lots of IO, the M1's role is not a traditional NAS, like the HC2.

mctom · Post by **mctom** » Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:20 pm

Thank heavens not all Odroids are compatible with 3,5" SATA drives, imagine OGA with 3,5" drive bay

Comparing M1 to HC2 is not fair, that is a completely different device with a different purpose.

mad_ady wrote: ↑
Tue Apr 05, 2022 1:28 pm
I'm with you on this one. Thankfully, I think there's an easy fix - soldering a thick wire between 12V input from the M1's PSU to the 12V pin on the sata connector.

On the other hand there is a very good explanation why this isn't done on a product level. Perhaps a jumper header for activating Vcc as 12V rail would be a reasonable compromise, with a solid warning why this is necessary.
BTW you don't need a thick wire, some 0,5mm in diameter should be fine (considering typical 1A and 15cm in length). Keep it very close to a board, to minimize the loop with ground net.

Now my turn to complain:
I find it very troubling there are no alternative pins or pads for power delivery, except of barrel jack. That would cost nothing and be really helpful to multimedia systems integrators.
Again, one may do a soldering hack with DC jack which I'm going to do, but a dedicated pad would be so elegant.

Post by **odroid** » Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:43 pm

Since the market demand for single board computers specialized for HDD NAS is not large enough these days, it seems unlikely that we will develop a product similar to the HC2/HC1 in the future.
If it is made by another manufacturer, I also have an intention to purchase it for personal use though.
But, in my opinion, their chances of commercial success are extremely slim.

BTW, it seems that there are few comments unrelated to the current M1 model from yesterday, so it would be efficient to lock this thread and continue to communicate in the M1 sub-forum.
viewforum.php?f=210