Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

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Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by Ralim »

Hello,

I have placed an order for the Smart Power 3 and have been looking through the provided documentation. Looking at the schematics it appears the DC/DC controller ic (STPD01) is not wired up with either cable compensation or the current sense feedback required for current regulation?

Would love if someone could confirm if indeed these are not setup correctly on the product, as if the current sense is not setup I will attempt to cancel my order to avoid buying a unit that can't operate safely.

Really hoping this is an error in the published schematics and there is a sense resistor for the main DC/DC parts. Slightly hopeful as what is shown in the schematic does not match either recommended configuration in the datasheet :/

Not overly fussed about the cable compensation, but it seems odd to not include it as it can be a very useful feature.

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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by magnum_pi »

@mctom told me in another thread (viewtopic.php?p=338581#p338581) that:

"as of now SP3 has no current limiting or protection at all (except of thermal protection). STPD01 current sensing is disabled by design."

I think that you're right about the missing components.

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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by Ralim »

Eugh damn;

Thank you for confirming that this is the case.
I've sent an email about trying to halt the order. Will be super disappointed if I've wasted my money on a power supply with no safety.
They were so close to the perfect bench supply for powering SBCs safely. (a few cents in parts).

Maybe I'll wait for the SmartPower4 in this case.

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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by magnum_pi »

I wonder would doing this stuff in software be an option for you? If you have any Arduino experience and can follow the datasheet, it seems that it should be easily possible to modify the firmware so that it does what you want. There's a section on interrupts in the data sheet that should be a good starting point.

It's just a thought. It might not be suitable for what you have in mind.

(I don't work for hk, by the way)

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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by Ralim »

Aye, one _could_ possibly implement this via the current readings, but that is no where near fast enough for cycle-by-cycle current limiting as would be required for testing to simulate different power sources. Also it means that testing for what happens during brownouts during high current load or simulating bad cables is not possible. And OCP protections are just not even possible as the power sample chip they have is way too slow reacting to be able to "act" quickly.

The biggest use case for the current sense though would be to allow a "slow" bring up, so that way an uncertain board could be powered safely without damage if the connections are reverse or if an unknown device is connected it can be powered safely.

This is especially useful given the large amount of output capacitance they have added, since the main way to combat that killing small devices would be to run in CC mode while ramping up.

Mostly just disappointed that this feature was omitted for the cost of an extra current sense resistor. It basically rules out the use of the device as anything more than just a current measurement tool; when it instead could have been a very nice replacement for desktop power supplies used by most hobbyists.


Definitely appreciate your answer though, thank you for chiming in :D
Mostly wanted someone to confirm I'm not crazy in that they have wired up things in odd means

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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by Ralim »

Oh should also note, this design completely violates the specifications for the STPD01.
ST clearly note that the max range allowed on the Isense pins is 3V, so anytime the output is set higher than the minimum of 3V its driving those outputs out of specification. I have no idea how long the IC will last under those conditions.


EDIT: HK has refunded the order. Thinking about maybe making my own that is nearly identical except with the STPD01 wired up the right way around; since the rest of the design is suuper nice. Or might make a "mod board" for this one, but need to sort out other projects first.

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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by mad_ady »

Based on the STPD01's package and size, I'm guessing a hardware mod to add these features would be difficult, right? Unless you were to use a bulky clamp to access the pins...


There are exposed I2C pins on the board, so, maybe one could reprogram those chips (if possible).

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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by mctom »

Ralim wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:38 am
ST clearly note that the max range allowed on the Isense pins is 3V, so anytime the output is set higher than the minimum of 3V its driving those outputs out of specification. I have no idea how long the IC will last under those conditions.
Well spotted, I didn't notice that myself. For any reason I remembered the Isns+ to be left floating and not grounded.
That may explain some other problem I've already patched in firmware.
mad_ady wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:06 pm
Based on the STPD01's package and size, I'm guessing a hardware mod to add these features would be difficult, right?
Normally I'd say everything could be done, but when I think of disconnecting a QFN pad from copper pour I'll just say nothing. :D
mad_ady wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:06 pm
There are exposed I2C pins on the board, so, maybe one could reprogram those chips (if possible).
These chips are fully accessible via SP3 firmware, and all have volatile memory, so... :)
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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by Ralim »

Yeah i didn't spot it either at first but when looking at it again it looked like a very headscratching mistake that I was wildly hoping was one; but it looks like the gerbers match the schematic sadly.
I wouldn't be surprised if the IC is very unhappy being wildly overdriven.

Yeah not inclined to buy the unit knowing I would need to remove and rewire QFN pads sadly just to be able to use the channels correctly. :'(

Technically it would be possible to lift those pads, and run some thin copper tape under there or thin copper wire to pick up the signals and then bodge another shunt resistor into the board.
But its a lot of work.

I'm just surprised they didnt use the same shunt for the DC/DC and the monitor and therefore the cost would be "free" for this feature:/

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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by mctom »

Ralim wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:10 pm
Technically it would be possible to lift those pads,
QFN pads? I don't think so. ;)
Ralim wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:10 pm
I'm just surprised they didnt use the same shunt for the DC/DC and the monitor and therefore the cost would be "free" for this feature:/
Judging by the looks of the schematics, they did and removed that afterwards, or they meant to do it but forgot, or someone was too tired while doing it.

Yesterday I was thinking about it before sleep and now I feel like I've got to open up my SP3 and probe the LX pin to see if buck converter is working in a stable manner. Not that easy to see behind all that output capacitors.
I fear this may explain the current measurement noise to some extent.
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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by magnum_pi »

Ralim wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:38 am
Oh should also note, this design completely violates the specifications for the STPD01.
ST clearly note that the max range allowed on the Isense pins is 3V, so anytime the output is set higher than the minimum of 3V its driving those outputs out of specification. I have no idea how long the IC will last under those conditions.
Oh my, this problem with I_SNS seems like a big deal.

I had a look over the datasheet last night but I couldn't see the part you were referring to. I had another look this morning and I found it:
Differential voltage between sensing pins : 0-3V
I've already got a few of these devices and more on order. Now I'm beginning to think that I should send back what I have and cancel the rest.

I wonder can we get some official confirmation here from Hardkernel whether the differential voltage is actually set to the output voltage? And if so, will they recall any units already shipped?

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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by mctom »

Meh, since there are no reports of any SP3 dying just yet I wouldn't be THAT worried.
Sure, it is above the specs and may damage current monitoring circuitry in STPD01 that is not in use anyway. As long as the unit lives I don't mind.

Heck, I'll leave my SP3 on with 15V output and see if it's still working tomorrow.

Just to make things clear, I agree this is a major mistake in the design, neither the first nor the last one. But so far there's no evidence it hurts end users in any way, so I wouldn't jump into conclusions just yet.

Hm, actually, it's easy enough to cut a trace going to pin 20 (ISNS-) and tie it to GND or pin 19 instead, if someone really wants to.
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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by Ralim »

My view on this is simply I wish odroid would fix the issue and add in the I_sense for the STPD01.
If they did that I would file an order for some right now, but with how its currently designed with the internal amplification circuitry being wildly overdriven I can't waste the money on the product given its both unsafe for my use case (testing new devices) and it may suddenly fail.


I dont think the STPD01 will blow up any time soon, but I would expect it to be more prone to damage since the overcurrent protections just wont work correctly.

I really wanted to be able to use this as a slightly more general power supply than just a current measurement unit but sadly this entirely rules this out for me given that CC mode is the number one protection mechanism any power supply should have.

The block diagram for the STPD01 seems to indicate that the current feedback is mostly used for protection, and that it is _optional_.
So the part should be stable at output voltage without it, but they are being driven definitely out of specification.
So if that signal is used for any control logic (i.e. PWM vs pulse skipping mode selection) then the device may not perform optimally.
I have however found with other ST products that a slight overdrive works for a _while_ but it slowly burns up internal protection diodes (or something, it gets warm but keeps working) and then suddenly the device fails days/months later on.

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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by odroid »

I've been monitoring this interesting discussion when you opened this thread.
But, the conclusion seems to be in a wrong direction. ;)
It is time to explain why we had to disable the STPD01 current sensing feature.

The STPD01 PMIC of the SmarPower3 has a current sensing input which can limit the output current as you guys know well. The maximum current is limited at 3Amp according to the datasheet.
But the PMIC current sensor is too much sensitive and it does shutdown the output power from time to time when the output current is slightly over 2.4Amp regardless of the output current settings.

Obviously, the major purpose of the SmartPower3 is to supply stable power to the ODROID boards well.
For example, ODROID-XU4 peak(short period) current is around 3.2Amp at 5 Volt when we use the board with some power hungry USB devices.
Therefore, we couldn't make the XU4 board boot stably when we enabled the current sensing feature on SmartPower3 prototype engineering samples.

To overcome the instability problem, we had to remove the current limiting feature from the mass-production version of the SmartPower3. Although the maximum current output has 3A in STPD01, the inductor current limit has 5Amp to make it more stable and robust.
We have been testing the circuit with continuous 3.5~4Amp of full load over a couple of months and there was no issue so far.
If SmartPower3 will be used with generic single board computers, there will be no serious problem probably.
Since the thermal protection circuit feature is still working nicely, you can safely keep using the SmartPower3 with various load conditions.

Anyway, if you really want to connect a heavy load more than 3.5Amp always, you have to buy other power supply unit certainly.
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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by Ralim »

Oh I definitely don't expect large current support from this unit, my main concern is that the DCDC part being used out of spec, and so I wouldn't feel safe to purchase or use this device. Especially as returning it for warranty if it fails costs more than the unit.

I've used a related DC/DC part before and it's been stable up until around just over the rating, where it would current limit its output.
If it was tripping too early I would be suspect of too large an output capacitance or bad layout before I took out the safety feature.
Heck, even using an incorrect resistance to make it slightly underread would be far more "ideal" than removing the safety.
Also noting it's a CC limit, not a shutdown. So if you set a CC limit of 100mA it will provide up to your set voltage or set current limit (like a traditional power supply). It will not just trip off.

Also in the past with issues with current sense inputs, when I talked to the FAE for most companies the simplest option is usually to throw a small value cap across the sense resistor to prevent short spikes showing up.

If it's tripping off that sounds like SCP is being tripped as your output voltage is dropping by 20% while the current is greater than 5A. If you are seeing an inductor current over 5A you are most likely exceeding the devices ratings 😭

Anyway, my thoughts on this are:
*Part is being wired up out of spec, manufacturers often put those in for a reason 😅 I would be concerned about longevity when used at high voltages (say 19V output) for long periods of time, especially at light loads
* Current limiting is a _very_ good feature to have for things
* The fact that this was tested, then decided to "disable" the safety rather than fix the issue is rather concerning, since it feels like a rush to production rather than see why you are running into this issue.
* Thermal protection is not enough for the use case of powering up unknown devices as it trips far, far too late to save the device you have connected :)


Honestly what I wanted this for most was connecting small boards that draw ~0.1A at 12V and being able to profile them. But I'm not going to use a device that is running a part this far out of its specifications, as the failure mode is unknown.

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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by mctom »

Ralim wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:39 pm
Also noting it's a CC limit, not a shutdown. So if you set a CC limit of 100mA it will provide up to your set voltage or set current limit (like a traditional power supply). It will not just trip off.
As I explained in another thread recently, in case of SBCs that is almost the same. :) Both OCP and CC will cause a reset in anything with downstream Buck converter.
But for the sake of safety I really think software based OCP will be acceptable. I, too, was concerned about the same issue.
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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by odroid »

@Ralim,
CC limit value didn't change anything as I told you.

Anyway, I can understand you concerns.
But our schematics is NOT out of spec at least.
According to the datasheet page 3, the current sensor feature could be disabled.
ISNS+/ISNS- connections for the current sensing resistor. Connect to GND if not used.

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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by mctom »

I'd argue that both ISNS pins should be grounded in this case.

I think I may mod my unit in this direction, for one channel, and see if it changes anything.
mctom wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:35 am
cut a trace going to pin 20 (ISNS-) and tie it to GND or pin 19
I suspect the absolute maximum differential voltage of ISNS pair is specified not because it will fry Buck converter, but there is a risk of phase reversal in internal amp, and giving false results. Especially when ISNS input is fed negative voltage.
But that's just guessing on my side.

But then again I feel reassured this design has been tested.
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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by Ralim »

I agree with the claim that it can be disabled, but as you even quoted "Connect to GND if not used." you must connect these to ground. Not the full output supply voltage.
The current design does _NOT_ ground both inputs but instead is feeding the entire output voltage into the internal logic. This I feel is a design issue.
I don't know anything about HK's relationship with ST, but at the least I would want to enquire to ST about this to see how many of their sample units failed in accelerated testing when driven out of spec on the Isense inputs.
A few samples running a load does not really qualify as testing to me, but thats just me :)

The choice of hardware CC/OCP vs software detection of sustained overload is more a more personal one. For me hardware is the only way to go; but for many others its probably not an issue.
Anyway; definitely not here to cause trouble, I have a fair few odroid SBC's and still like HK, just makes this product a pass :)

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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by magnum_pi »

odroid wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:15 pm
But our schematics is NOT out of spec at least.
According to the datasheet page 3, the current sensor feature could be disabled.
ISNS+/ISNS- connections for the current sensing resistor. Connect to GND if not used.
But Ralim is saying that the I_SNS+ is not connected to ground, but rather the output voltage on the channel, meaning the differential voltage exceeds the 3v maximum when anything more than 3v is put out on the channel.

What you say above does not address this. If Ralim is correct about the I_SNS+ pin, then it seems to me that the HK design clearly is out of spec.

I am also not here to cause trouble. I just want clarity on the situation.

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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by odroid »

Normally we have not unveiled our internal development iterations publicly.
But, I have to write something to this thread.

When we tested our first prototype boards several months ago, there was a current sensing feature which didn't work well as I mentioned earlier.
There were huge ripples (over several hundred mV level) on the output rail. The PMIC cuts the output power down from time to time if the load is higher than 2Amp.
We tried many experimental things to reduce the ripples and avoid the random shutdown problem but there was no reliable solution.

Then, we tied two ISNS+/ISNS- to GND as the pin descriptions after removing the current sense resistor since the external current sensor IC PAC1933 worked fine.
But, we saw both of the two PMIC outputs swung between 0 to 19Volt(input voltage) regardless of the output voltage settings. We can reproduce the issue easily even today as this oscilloscope capture.
scope_0.png
scope_0.png (41.82 KiB) Viewed 143 times
At that time(April or May), we reported this weird phenomenon to ST via US distributor Digikey which sold the PMIC to us. But there was no feedback yet.
Therefore, we tried finding another solution(connecting the I_SNS+ pin to the output and placing a 22pF capacitor on the VSENSE pin) to avoid that problem after some painful long time experimental tests by ourselves.
With this configuration, finally the output voltage was stable with less than 50mV tolerance and the random shutdown problem disappeared completely.
After heavily using/testing many pre-production samples in our office for a couple of months, we had not met any critical issues. I believe we didn't rush too much.
In the end, we could make a decision of the mass production since the final product spec met the original purpose of the SmartPower3.

Because our sales volume of the SmartPower series is only ~2K per year, ST or other IC vendors have not helped us much.
I hope you guys can understand our limitation.

P/S: Another side note.
If we short the PMIC output to the GND, the PMIC output shuts down immediately thanks to the internal protection feature.
After disconnecting the output from the GND, the output is still off line.
We have to unplug and plug the power source to reset the protection mode.
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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by mctom »

Terrible times. Everyone got used to software that is released unfinished and "ends life" when authors give up patching it.
Hardware used to be rock solid, now more often do we see design mistakes in ICs. For the same reasons, I assume.

Thank you very much for explanation. Frankly I'm not surprised that IC has a quirk like that.
In my previous job I debugged a design with NXP SoC that had I2C engine non-functional until you reset it with 22pF load on I2C clock line. Makes no damn sense to add capacitance to SCL, every single engineer would say it's wrong, but at least it works this way.

Also, thanks for explaining that before I managed to do the mod. I'd be very surprised with the results. ;)
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Re: Smart Power 3: DC/DC regulator missing I sense?

Post by Ralim »

Hi,

Super glad to hear the full explanation.
Very disappointing to hear that you haven't heard back from ST, I'm not much different in terms of volume and have managed to eventually extract answers via email from them over issues.
Absolutely understanding the decision of _why_ this was done.

Definitely can understand the design decision.
I might try and see if I can get hands on with the STEVAL-2STPD01 at some point soon and try and find out some answers around this; definitely feels like something is unhappy.

Super appreciative of the extra information provided.

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