New H2+ or H3

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New H2+ or H3

Post by _linux_ »

Hi there!

Were there any announcements by Hardkernel if they still plan a next batch? And if so how long it will take roughly till the shortages of parts will be over?

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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by powerful owl »

4-5 months said about a month ago - viewtopic.php?p=322682#p322682
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_linux_ (Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:10 am)

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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by _linux_ »

powerful owl wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:08 pm
4-5 months said about a month ago - viewtopic.php?p=322682#p322682
Thank you!

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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by rooted »

Due to the component shortage it may be up to 6 months before they are available again.
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_linux_ (Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:56 am)

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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by _linux_ »

rooted wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:03 pm
Due to the component shortage it may be up to 6 months before they are available again.
I'm happy for them, that the H2+ seems to be a big success! I'm very satisfied with the product myself!

Thanks for your replies and best regards from Switzerland!

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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by rooted »

_linux_ wrote:
rooted wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:03 pm
Due to the component shortage it may be up to 6 months before they are available again.
I'm happy for them, that the H2+ seems to be a big success! I'm very satisfied with the product myself!

Thanks for your replies and best regards from Switzerland!
Best regards from the coastal US.

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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by tmihai20 »

My H2 is rocking OpenMediaVault since it arrived to me. I would love to be able to add more HDDs without sacrificing M.2 port. Please keep that in mind when working on H3. I would be ok with 4 SATA ports on a future H3, 6 would make it an absolute NAS beast. Please keep that in mind when designing H2+ successor, whatever its name will be.
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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by lecris »

tmihai20 wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:31 am
I would be ok with 4 SATA ports on a future H3
Unfortunately this would be a longshot. With only 2 sata drives you would need a 60W power source to use with some hard drives, and 12V-5A power source is not that standard. Also considering complications in designing the case, it would be better to separate the main NAS to a more standard (mini/micro) ITX board with the drive capacity you would need.

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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by tmihai20 »

lecris wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:09 pm
Unfortunately this would be a longshot. With only 2 sata drives you would need a 60W power source to use with some hard drives, and 12V-5A power source is not that standard. Also considering complications in designing the case, it would be better to separate the main NAS to a more standard (mini/micro) ITX board with the drive capacity you would need.
I am aware more SATA ports would increase the power supply needs, but I am anyway powering up my 2 drives separately now because I put my H2 into a micro ATX case that is meant to be used for NAS - Fractal Design Node 304 can accommodate 6 2.5 or 2.5 inches drives. Maybe there should be a new product in the form of a micro ITX board, but that would definitely be a lot more expensive than H2+ is right now. I would honestly pay for such a new mini ITX board if it would have a faster x86 CPU than H2+ has right now (Intel or AMD), with the possibility to add a separate GPU when needed. Having just 2 SATA ports really made me look into mini ATX boards because I am already looking for a new HDD and I don't want to sacrifice PCI Express for that. Mini ITX boards are quite expensive and the hardware in them is old.

Edit: I just remembered reading something about how CPU and HDD will follow the trend of PS5 and GPU shortage pretty soon. I guess even designing new boards is difficult now :? :|
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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by Mogster »

It depends. I got an Asrock mini-ITX board with a Celeron J4105, 4 SATA ports and PCIe x1 (sadly no M.2) for $85 about a year and a half ago. It works well as a file server but doesn't do much else.

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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by tmihai20 »

I would pay 125 USD for a possible H3 with 4 SATA ports and dual 2.5 Gbit Ethernet. SoC would not matter that much as long as it is x86. I keep reading AMD is making great APUs, I would not turn it down if it should have AMD instead of Intel. But I do understand that these are difficult times and I can wait for a better, stronger H3.
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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by brad »

tmihai20 wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:46 am
I would pay 125 USD for a possible H3 with 4 SATA ports and dual 2.5 Gbit Ethernet. SoC would not matter that much as long as it is x86. I keep reading AMD is making great APUs, I would not turn it down if it should have AMD instead of Intel. But I do understand that these are difficult times and I can wait for a better, stronger H3.
I use the M.2 port with a IBM ServeRAID H1110 flashed with bypass mode firmware for 6 normal sata ports in total, I need to buy 4 more ssds and is a tight fit into https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-h2-case-type-5/:
20210423_110453.jpg
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I have a number of devices individual powered at the moment via power bricks on my bench so switching across to a single ATX power supply for everything.
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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by tmihai20 »

@brad: I know I can use the M.2 port to add more drives, but I need it so my DIY NAS can boot as fast as possible. No microSD card is good enough on the long run. The successor to H2 should have at least 4 SATA ports, even if the power supply will have to be more expensive to support more drives. I am sticking to my opinion, I can work with 4 SATA ports well enough. My H2 is now in a mini-ITS case (Fractal Design Node 304) that has room for 6 HDDs. I tried looking for mini-ITX motherboard+CPU, but I can only find quite expensive and old hardware that is not worth it compared to H2 (even from wattage point of view).
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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by strontiumk9 »

tmihai20 wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 6:39 pm
@brad: I know I can use the M.2 port to add more drives, but I need it so my DIY NAS can boot as fast as possible. No microSD card is good enough on the long run. The successor to H2 should have at least 4 SATA ports, even if the power supply will have to be more expensive to support more drives. I am sticking to my opinion, I can work with 4 SATA ports well enough. My H2 is now in a mini-ITS case (Fractal Design Node 304) that has room for 6 HDDs. I tried looking for mini-ITX motherboard+CPU, but I can only find quite expensive and old hardware that is not worth it compared to H2 (even from wattage point of view).
Have you considered using a sata port multiplier like this: http://rodi.sk/misc/sata-port-multiplie ... benchmark/
The H2 could attach to 10 sata drivers with 2 of these.

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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by tmihai20 »

strontiumk9 wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:57 pm
Have you considered using a sata port multiplier like this: http://rodi.sk/misc/sata-port-multiplie ... benchmark/
The H2 could attach to 10 sata drivers with 2 of these.
It looks good on paper, but it just uses one port for several HDDs and it sacrifices speed. I do not want to reduce copy speed. I can still survive with 2 HDDs for now.
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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by brad »

I finally purchased all of my 500 Gb SSD's. Now have 6 connected to H2+ in raid 10 stripe / mirror.
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Striped provides best performance (obviously) but stripped and mirrored is close behind with the extra redundancy. I also tested raidz2 but noticed around 25% performance decrease.

Done using the IBM ServeRAID H1110 card flashed with unraid firmware.

I suspect the performance is better than nvme with 6 drives stripped together as each sata lane has a dedicated pcie 2 lane
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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by rooted »

What are you doing with 3TB of SSD?

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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by tmihai20 »

Technically there are 3 TB raw. If I got RAID 10 mirror correctly, that system can use 1.5 TB, which is quite less by today's standards.
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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by rooted »

tmihai20 wrote:Technically there are 3 TB raw. If I got RAID 10 mirror correctly, that system can use 1.5 TB, which is quite less by today's standards.
I understood that, just curious why SSD. Database server perhaps?

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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by brad »

rooted wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:24 am
tmihai20 wrote:Technically there are 3 TB raw. If I got RAID 10 mirror correctly, that system can use 1.5 TB, which is quite less by today's standards.
I understood that, just curious why SSD. Database server perhaps?
It will be SAN/ NAS for all my odroids running TrueNAS, SSD's for speed and power savings.

- All of my Odroids will have iSCSI root filesystem exported from here (allows me to snapshot / rollback root filesystems and reduces the need for larger costly emmc's / sd's)
- common NFS share for home directories and log archives

Can also export an iSCSI disk or samba share to my windows machine (& vm's it runs) for additional space with full snapshot / rollback support.

I also run a Plex docker image in TrueNAS scale on the H2+ so the disk can be used for transcoding / storage.

I have compression enabled on ZFS at the moment so I can achieve greater than 1.5Tb available space, I could potential add more RAM and enable de duplication but that would require some performance testing. I can also add USB connected HDD's to store additional snapshots or external copy of the data if needed.

I have 2x Evo 860, 2x Evo 870, 2x WD Blue 500Gb SSD's, the mirrored pairs each have different ssd types. In RAIDZ2 mode I had 2Tb space.

Both 2.5G ethernet interfaces configured for multipath so have potential of 5Gb ethernet bandwidth to various odroid devices combined. All routed through another H2+ with a netcard running PFSense to route traffic to my mini datacentre or client machines.
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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by mad_ady »

Is 1Gbps (on the odroid side) enough for rootfs performance? What's the minimum link bandwidth you can use and still have ok performance with io-intensive things like docker volumes, where there's a high level of indirection/abstraction?
If you're using iscsi for rootfs you must be exposing a block device, which means the filesystem cache lives on the client side. I take it NFS provides worse performance/higher overhead for small files, right? How easy can you grow/resize a block exposed via iscsi?
Sounds like an interesting project, and I hope you have the timd to document it!

Edit: and how well do the clients recover from a router or storage reboot?

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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by brad »

mad_ady wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:13 pm
Is 1Gbps (on the odroid side) enough for rootfs performance? What's the minimum link bandwidth you can use and still have ok performance with io-intensive things like docker volumes, where there's a high level of indirection/abstraction?
If you're using iscsi for rootfs you must be exposing a block device, which means the filesystem cache lives on the client side. I take it NFS provides worse performance/higher overhead for small files, right? How easy can you grow/resize a block exposed via iscsi?
Sounds like an interesting project, and I hope you have the timd to document it!

Edit: and how well do the clients recover from a router or storage reboot?
1Gbps works well from my testing so far with N2 / C4 I would say it is comparable with emmc or fast sd. Transfers close to 100Mb / sec and the response times very good. As a test I compiled Chromium on the C4 which took over 24 hours. It consumes large amounts of RAM so I was using a swapfile located on the iSCSI disk. The 1Gbps was certainly the bottleneck at times but survived well. I need hardkernel to make an arm64 board with 2.5G ethernet or even 2x 1Gb :)

With the disk consuming network bandwidth it does limit how you can use the 1Gb for other activity but as you mentioned there is a client side cache when using a block device which helps.

NFS or samba can be problematic for small files or folders with lots of small files, With iSCSI all that is left to the client it knows nothing about the files just stores the data. I to a lot of compiling and NFS is horrible as the server records the timestamp when a file it written rather than the client. Even with a small amount of clock drift it can play havoc with some compilers.

Growing the disk is easy and will show up to any modern os right away, the tricky part can be resizing the filesystem especially if it is the root but this is the same for any other disk.

The clients tend to just wait when the disk / network disappears and reconnect once it is back. There are selectable options in the block exports to force disk sync meaning anything must be written to disk before client is informed, ie no caching writes on the server so theoretically if I pulled the power plug and then rebooted the server the client just pauses. I need to do some more testing for these type of scenarios and also some performance benchmarks.

Edit: I corrected Gb to Mb, I think I am getting old
Last edited by brad on Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by mad_ady »

Thanks for the insight!

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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by fonix232 »

tmihai20 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:50 pm
strontiumk9 wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:57 pm
Have you considered using a sata port multiplier like this: http://rodi.sk/misc/sata-port-multiplie ... benchmark/
The H2 could attach to 10 sata drivers with 2 of these.
It looks good on paper, but it just uses one port for several HDDs and it sacrifices speed. I do not want to reduce copy speed. I can still survive with 2 HDDs for now.
HDDs can't saturate a whole SATA III interface. Most commercial HDDs you'll find max out around 120-130MBps, SATA III can do up to 600MBps. Basically you can use a SATA port multiplier for up to 5 HDDs without reducing throughput. Technically, you could hook up 10 HDDs without any major performance loss onto the two SATA ports of the H2.

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Re: New H2+ or H3

Post by tmihai20 »

fonix232 wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:40 pm
tmihai20 wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:50 pm
strontiumk9 wrote:
Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:57 pm
Have you considered using a sata port multiplier like this: http://rodi.sk/misc/sata-port-multiplie ... benchmark/
The H2 could attach to 10 sata drivers with 2 of these.
It looks good on paper, but it just uses one port for several HDDs and it sacrifices speed. I do not want to reduce copy speed. I can still survive with 2 HDDs for now.
HDDs can't saturate a whole SATA III interface. Most commercial HDDs you'll find max out around 120-130MBps, SATA III can do up to 600MBps. Basically you can use a SATA port multiplier for up to 5 HDDs without reducing throughput. Technically, you could hook up 10 HDDs without any major performance loss onto the two SATA ports of the H2.
Then there is no problem in having more SATA ports on the successor to oDroid H2+, right? That adapter is strange at least. You can see that the more HDDs are connected with that adapter, less speed is there because that adapter does not properly duplicate ports, it just splits 1 port to several HDDs. As I said before, I don't want to sacrifice M.2 port for more HDDs. Having 4 SATA ports is doable, even if the power supply would have more wattage.
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