Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

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Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by YesSirDK »

Hi. Just ordered a HC4. I am going to use it as a Nas with open media vault 5.
What would you recommend, Debian or Armbian?

Thanks!

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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by igorpec »

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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by trs »

ARMBIAN is a dead-end.... I could not get the OS onto an USB-C SSD, the last storage connector.... the goal is to run two 2TB SATA SSDs in a raid1 configuration with OVM. ARMBIAN can't handle OS-boot on USB what Petit-Boot-Handler does. You may install Debian Buster with Petitboot easily through network see Youtube Video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugDcoqfb4Xw

OMV is single line installation ...... : https://github.com/OpenMediaVault-Plugi ... tallScript

that's it ! Theo
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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by igorpec »

trs wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:21 am
ARMBIAN is a dead-end.... I could not get the OS onto an USB-C SSD, the last storage connector.... the goal is to run two 2TB SATA SSDs in a raid1 configuration with OVM. ARMBIAN can't handle OS-boot on USB what Petit-Boot-Handler does. You may install Debian Buster with Petitboot easily through network see Youtube Video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugDcoqfb4Xw

OMV is single line installation ...... : https://github.com/OpenMediaVault-Plugi ... tallScript

that's it ! Theo
If you like private linux kernel and other proprietary hacks, quick and dirty way, why not. Armbian comes without dirty hacks. Mainline u-boot and mainline kernel based. If you seek security and reliability for NAS use case, recommended by OMV, ....

We will add SPI booting when we find time, but there is no rush.
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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by tobetter »

igorpec wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:18 am
trs wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:21 am
ARMBIAN is a dead-end.... I could not get the OS onto an USB-C SSD, the last storage connector.... the goal is to run two 2TB SATA SSDs in a raid1 configuration with OVM. ARMBIAN can't handle OS-boot on USB what Petit-Boot-Handler does. You may install Debian Buster with Petitboot easily through network see Youtube Video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugDcoqfb4Xw

OMV is single line installation ...... : https://github.com/OpenMediaVault-Plugi ... tallScript

that's it ! Theo
If you like private linux kernel and other proprietary hacks, quick and dirty way, why not. Armbian comes without dirty hacks. Mainline u-boot and mainline kernel based. If you seek security and reliability for NAS use case, recommended by OMV, ....
Why is it private linux kernel? And what kind of prorietary hack did you find from it?

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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by igorpec »

tobetter wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:25 am
Why is it private linux kernel?
I am just defending our position. No need to be upset about - you are doing good work. But, you know very well what I am talking about. https://github.com/hardkernel/linux v4.9 and https://github.com/hardkernel/u-boot v2015, mali closed drivers, Petitboot is also not exactly an universal solution but it works for your case. We don't need to boot other distros from our boot loader, you have to ... I understand that, but why this universal solution fails to boot Armbian? Do we need to have FAT boot partition or what?
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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by tobetter »

igorpec wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:59 am
tobetter wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:25 am
Why is it private linux kernel?
I am just defending our position. No need to be upset about - you are doing good work. But, you know very well what I am talking about. https://github.com/hardkernel/linux v4.9 and https://github.com/hardkernel/u-boot v2015, mali closed drivers, Petitboot is also not exactly an universal solution but it works for your case. We don't need to boot other distros from our boot loader, you have to ... I understand that, but why this universal solution fails to boot Armbian? Do we need to have FAT boot partition or what?
I am not sure your words defend your position using the words disrespectful and I am sure I am not upset about this. But it's unpleasant to read when you represent the efforts of Armbian team using upstream U-boot and mainline kernel and compare to Hardkernel's one. Literally I understand your words is to promote your Armbian and to be respected the efforts of Armbian teams by users, but sometimes it's too much and I doubt if it works. I believe every single piece has pros and cons, one could be better than others but one cannot be absolute.

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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by mad_ady »

Offtopic (rant): This is the goal of open source - give different teams the same starting conditions so that each team can focus in the direction they choose.

Armbian vs Hardkernel is like vi vs emacs, kde vs gnome, mac vs pc and so on...

Armbian has the ambitious goal to have universal packages, as close to mainline as possible for all/most sbcs. IMHO, this is very hard and I think this is the cause of the frustration we're seeing. It may be easier if there was money involved - like how Amlogic pays baylibre to help upstream the kernel for their socs. Or how somebody (don't know who) pays Collabra to develop panfrost/bifrost.

Hardkernel, on the other hand, wants to provide the most functional software for its boards. Why do they use older kernels/uboot? Because the soc manufacturer delivers them as part of the BSP, often makes changes to support their soc, but fails to upstream those changes. Most often, either the custom code is not released (e.g. binary blobs) or is too nonstandard that it needs to be rewritten completely to be upstreamed (and sometimes even that is not enough - see samsung's big.Little scheduler implementation that wasn't accepted upstream). That means that end users won't get top performance from their hardware on mainline kernel.

What is the best way to do it? In a perfect world, I'd say Armbian's way is the best (use everything from upstream). In today's reality Hardkernel's method provides best performance (for their boards). It's true that you need to go with Armbian if you want a new kernel for your C1, but at the same time you give up various things which are not working... So Armbian wins for LTS support on EOL boards.

This doesn't mean Armbian community has to be upset/resentful for Hardkernel's approach - they're just going in their direction trying to provide best performance for their boards with what's available now. Without full disclosure from Arm/Amlogic and with limited staff for software development (2-3 engineers?) they also don't have the resources to pull off what Armbian wants to do.

So they have two different goals, but this doesn't mean they're incompatible.... I'm sure that with mutual respect, the end users will get to choose what is best for them, but it's rude to downplay either team's efforts!

Now, let's try to bury the hatchet and acknowledge our differences and work together because tension and discord hurts everyone...
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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by rooted »

Mutual respect won't happen from what I've seen, but I love what you wrote mad_ady.
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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by klippe »

A few things from an end-user perspective to consider here:

1. Debian install is dead simple with the builtin stuff, but Armbian one is very easy too so that's not a big deal really. The interesting part are issues when using one or the other.
2. Some users, including me have had issues with Deb + OMV: viewtopic.php?f=207&t=41259&p=320558#p320558 - so I suggest doing some testing before getting used to the solution. :(
3. OMV works great on Armbian, but Armbian itself seems to recently have issues with network after restarts - which is a big problem for headless device: https://forum.armbian.com/topic/17112-o ... est-image/ and similar on HC4 https://forum.armbian.com/topic/17158-o ... fter-boot/

So the above are my cases too: I can't use Debian + OMV because it crashes while transferring files and I'm not happy with Armbian that forces me to connect monitor and keyboard after every poweroff. I'm currently considering options like going with Debian plus urbackup (no OMV) or trying OMV with Meverick's Debian - maybe it will be stable: viewtopic.php?f=203&t=38729

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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by igorpec »

klippe wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:25 pm
A few things from an end-user perspective to consider here:

1. Debian install is dead simple with the builtin stuff, but Armbian one is very easy too so that's not a big deal really. The interesting part are issues when using one or the other.
2. Some users, including me have had issues with Deb + OMV: viewtopic.php?f=207&t=41259&p=320558#p320558 - so I suggest doing some testing before getting used to the solution. :(
3. OMV works great on Armbian, but Armbian itself seems to recently have issues with network after restarts
Use previous image from archive, freeze kernel upgrades (armbian-config -> system -> freeze) and don't unfreeze + update until this is resolved.

Edit: On 4.9.y kernel image install those two packages and reboot:

https://users.armbian.com/igorp/package ... _arm64.deb
https://users.armbian.com/igorp/package ... _arm64.deb
Last edited by igorpec on Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by klippe »

I've tried latest, then 20.11.10, then 20.11.7 and it's the same situation. Tried 4.9.247 and it works... but it doesn't see disks - I've got 2 inserted but those are not detected with 4.9 (kernel limitation I suppose).

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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by igorpec »

klippe wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:39 am
I've tried latest, then 20.11.10, then 20.11.7 and it's the same situation. Tried 4.9.247 and it works... but it doesn't see disks - I've got 2 inserted but those are not detected with 4.9 (kernel limitation I suppose).
Its not a problem with network after restart. It hangs on boot loader and power cycle brings board back. IIRC we have fixed this, but it came back. Damn. Modern kernel is so much better for NAS ...

Kernel 4.9.y images need to be rebuild and add this fix. You can try switching to nightly build - where this is already implemented. Or install those two packages:

Code: Select all

https://users.armbian.com/igorp/packages/linux-dtb-legacy-meson64_21.05.0-trunk.30_arm64.deb
https://users.armbian.com/igorp/packages/linux-image-legacy-meson64_21.05.0-trunk.30_arm64.deb
If that works OK, I can push fix for stable images.
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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by klippe »

igorpec wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:05 am
Kernel 4.9.y images need to be rebuild and add this fix. You can try switching to nightly build - where this is already implemented. If that works OK, I can push fix for stable images so kernel update will fix this problem.
I've switched (on 4.9) to nightly (used armian-config to switch to nightly, then apt update & upgrade and then rebooted), not sure if anything else is needed) but there's no difference - it still doesn't see the drives :(

Sidenote: switching to nightly on 5.9 (got 2 sd cards to play with it) killed it - device doesn't boot at all.

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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by klippe »

And after installing two aforementioned packages it doesn't boot. Prints:

Image

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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by igorpec »

klippe wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:16 am
And after installing two aforementioned packages it doesn't boot. Prints:

Image
And you install those packages on 4.9.y image?
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Re: Debian or Armbian for Open media vault on HC4

Post by klippe »

igorpec wrote:
Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:24 am
And you install those packages on 4.9.y image?
Yes it was on 4.9. I've just reinstalled 4.9 image from scratch and installed those packages (no switching to nightly) - no effect - disks still not visible.

armbianmonitor output: http://ix.io/2Rwe

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