Minimal images are NOT Minimal

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SirZevo
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Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by SirZevo »

I do not know what definition of Minimal Hardkernel staff follows, but my and probably most people's definition are based upon that MINIMAL contains just enough to function optimally. This is why images from other distributions are way smaller. An example is Armbian_20.08.22_Odroidn2_focal_current_5.9.6.img which is 335 MB compressed and 1,54 GB uncompressed, compared to ubuntu-20.04-4.9-minimal-odroid-n2-20200715 which is 582 MB compressed and 4GB uncompressed. So, might it be possible for future versions to distribute a MINIMAL image where people instead can simply install whatever they need by themself?

The reason for why I'm asking is that I have to remove packages that are not needed and resolv issues which is caused by the fact that the image is NOT MINIMAL. An example is aml-libs which gives errors such as the following when installing ffmpeg. There are several other cases which could be mentioned as well, but the point is that it should be the other way around: Install what you need, and not remove what you don't need...

Code: Select all

trying to overwrite '/usr/bin/ffprobe', which is also in package aml-libs 20200708-14f646a-1
dpkg-deb: error: paste subprocess was killed by signal (Broken pipe)
Last edited by SirZevo on Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by tobetter »

SirZevo wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:34 pm
I do not know what definition of Minimal Hardkernel staff follows, but my and probably most people's definition are based upon that MINIMAL contains just enough to function optimally. This is why images from other distributions are way smaller. An example is Armbian_20.08.22_Odroidn2_focal_current_5.9.6.img which is 335 MB compressed and 1,54 GB uncompressed, compared to ubuntu-20.04-4.9-minimal-odroid-n2-20200715 which is 582 MB compressed and 4GB uncompressed. So, might it be possible for future versions to distribute a MINIMAL image where people instead can simply install whatever they need by themself?

The reason for why I'm asking is that I have to remove packages that are not needed and resolv issues which is caused by the fact that the image is NOT MINIMAL. An example is aml-libs which gives errors such as the following when installing ffmpeg. There are several other cases which could be mentioned as well, but the point is that it should be the other way around: Install what you need, and not remove what you don't need...

Code: Select all

trying to overwrite '/usr/bin/ffprobe', which is also in package aml-libs 20200708-14f646a-1
dpkg-deb: error: paste subprocess was killed by signal (Broken pipe)
If you prefer to use the optimal OS image, your can also consider to use this image.
viewtopic.php?p=309320#p309320

Or if you prefer to install from scratch to your ODROID-N2 directly, consider to use Netboot Installer that is legacy way how Debian/Ubuntu installs its OS to PC. This way will provide the bare minimal package setup with the mainline Linux kernel.
viewtopic.php?p=275140#p275140

Both provide the mainline kernel, but the supported SoC features must a bit limited.

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by SirZevo »

Thx tobetter, that is what I'm looking for. I'll try the optimal OS image with ubuntu-20.04-server-odroidn2-20201024.img. I'm currently looking for the most optimal build for a home server which can run multiple docker containers, have multiple usb devices attached and can display command line on a 4K TV similar to what Petiboot currently is able to.
Last edited by SirZevo on Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by tobetter »

SirZevo wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:57 pm
Thx tobetter, that is what I'm looking for. I'll try the optimal OS image with ubuntu-20.04-server-odroidn2-20201024.img. I'm currently looking for the most optimal build for a home server which can run multiple docker containers, have multiple usb devices attached and can display command line on a 4K HDR TV similar to what Petiboot currently is able to.
You could try the Netboot Installer from the Petitboot. Just run netboot_default in the command line of the Petitboot after connecting the network. Then you will have Netboot Installer menu and can start to install Debian or Ubuntu.

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by SirZevo »

Both did not display anything on my 4K TV. I have added a comment as well as asked for some help over at the mainline thread.

I am still facing some remaining issues with the 4.9 kernel. The most important is docker, where the error is below.

Code: Select all

Setting up containerd.io (1.3.7-1) ...
Created symlink /etc/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants/containerd.service → /lib/systemd/system/containerd.service.
Setting up docker-ce-cli (5:19.03.13~3-0~ubuntu-focal) ...
Setting up pigz (2.4-1) ...
Setting up git-man (1:2.25.1-1ubuntu3) ...
Setting up cgroupfs-mount (1.4) ...
Setting up docker-ce (5:19.03.13~3-0~ubuntu-focal) ...
Created symlink /etc/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants/docker.service → /lib/systemd/system/docker.service.
Created symlink /etc/systemd/system/sockets.target.wants/docker.socket → /lib/systemd/system/docker.socket.
A dependency job for docker.service failed. See 'journalctl -xe' for details.
invoke-rc.d: initscript docker, action "start" failed.
● docker.service - Docker Application Container Engine
     Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/docker.service; enabled; vendor preset: enabled)
     Active: inactive (dead)
TriggeredBy: ● docker.socket
       Docs: https://docs.docker.com

Nov 17 14:42:06 odroid-n2 systemd[1]: Dependency failed for Docker Application Container Engine.
Nov 17 14:42:06 odroid-n2 systemd[1]: docker.service: Job docker.service/start failed with result 'dependency'.
dpkg: error processing package docker-ce (--configure):
 installed docker-ce package post-installation script subprocess returned error exit status 1
Setting up git (1:2.25.1-1ubuntu3) ...
Processing triggers for man-db (2.9.1-1) ...
 Processing triggers for systemd (245.4-4ubuntu3.3) ...
Errors were encountered while processing:
 docker-ce
E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
Setting up docker-ce (5:19.03.13~3-0~ubuntu-focal) ...
 A dependency job for docker.service failed. See 'journalctl -xe' for details.
invoke-rc.d: initscript docker, action "start" failed.
● docker.service - Docker Application Container Engine
     Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/docker.service; enabled; vendor preset: enabled)
     Active: inactive (dead)
TriggeredBy: ● docker.socket
       Docs: https://docs.docker.com

Nov 17 14:42:06 odroid-n2 systemd[1]: Dependency failed for Docker Application Container Engine.
Nov 17 14:42:06 odroid-n2 systemd[1]: docker.service: Job docker.service/start failed with result 'dependency'.
Nov 17 14:42:16 odroid-n2 systemd[1]: Dependency failed for Docker Application Container Engine.
Nov 17 14:42:16 odroid-n2 systemd[1]: docker.service: Job docker.service/start failed with result 'dependency'.
dpkg: error processing package docker-ce (--configure):
 installed docker-ce package post-installation script subprocess returned error exit status 1
Errors were encountered while processing:
 docker-ce
The issue might be related to that containerd depends on overlay. To verify if overlay is included in the kernel, I have ran the following. Given it says =m and not =y, is overlay not included in the kernel?

Code: Select all

root@odroid-n2:~# zcat /proc/config.gz | grep -i overlay
# CONFIG_OF_OVERLAY is not set
CONFIG_OVERLAY_FS=m
Last edited by SirZevo on Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by tobetter »

SirZevo wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:46 am
Both did not display on my 4K TV. I've added a comment regarding that in the mainline thread and ask for some ideas.

I'm still facing some remaining issues with the 4.9 kernel. First is Docker engine engine, seen below.

Code: Select all

Setting up containerd.io (1.3.7-1) ...
Created symlink /etc/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants/containerd.service → /lib/systemd/system/containerd.service.
Setting up docker-ce-cli (5:19.03.13~3-0~ubuntu-focal) ...
Setting up pigz (2.4-1) ...
Setting up git-man (1:2.25.1-1ubuntu3) ...
Setting up cgroupfs-mount (1.4) ...
Setting up docker-ce (5:19.03.13~3-0~ubuntu-focal) ...
Created symlink /etc/systemd/system/multi-user.target.wants/docker.service → /lib/systemd/system/docker.service.
Created symlink /etc/systemd/system/sockets.target.wants/docker.socket → /lib/systemd/system/docker.socket.
A dependency job for docker.service failed. See 'journalctl -xe' for details.
invoke-rc.d: initscript docker, action "start" failed.
● docker.service - Docker Application Container Engine
     Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/docker.service; enabled; vendor preset: enabled)
     Active: inactive (dead)
TriggeredBy: ● docker.socket
       Docs: https://docs.docker.com

Nov 17 14:42:06 odroid-n2 systemd[1]: Dependency failed for Docker Application Container Engine.
Nov 17 14:42:06 odroid-n2 systemd[1]: docker.service: Job docker.service/start failed with result 'dependency'.
dpkg: error processing package docker-ce (--configure):
 installed docker-ce package post-installation script subprocess returned error exit status 1
Setting up git (1:2.25.1-1ubuntu3) ...
Processing triggers for man-db (2.9.1-1) ...
 Processing triggers for systemd (245.4-4ubuntu3.3) ...
Errors were encountered while processing:
 docker-ce
E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
Setting up docker-ce (5:19.03.13~3-0~ubuntu-focal) ...
 A dependency job for docker.service failed. See 'journalctl -xe' for details.
invoke-rc.d: initscript docker, action "start" failed.
● docker.service - Docker Application Container Engine
     Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/docker.service; enabled; vendor preset: enabled)
     Active: inactive (dead)
TriggeredBy: ● docker.socket
       Docs: https://docs.docker.com

Nov 17 14:42:06 odroid-n2 systemd[1]: Dependency failed for Docker Application Container Engine.
Nov 17 14:42:06 odroid-n2 systemd[1]: docker.service: Job docker.service/start failed with result 'dependency'.
Nov 17 14:42:16 odroid-n2 systemd[1]: Dependency failed for Docker Application Container Engine.
Nov 17 14:42:16 odroid-n2 systemd[1]: docker.service: Job docker.service/start failed with result 'dependency'.
dpkg: error processing package docker-ce (--configure):
 installed docker-ce package post-installation script subprocess returned error exit status 1
Errors were encountered while processing:
 docker-ce
The issue might be related to that containerd depends on overlay. To verify if overlay is included in the kernel, I have ran the following. Given it says =m and not =y, is overlay not included in the kernel?

Code: Select all

root@odroid-n2:~# zcat /proc/config.gz | grep -i overlay
# CONFIG_OF_OVERLAY is not set
CONFIG_OVERLAY_FS=m
For OVERLAYFS, since the kernel config is marked as module, you would be able to load the driver with modprobe overlayfs and check with lsmod | grep overlay.

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by SirZevo »

By simply running it?

Code: Select all

root@odroid-n2:~$ modprobe overlayfs
modprobe: FATAL: Module overlayfs not found in directory /lib/modules/4.9.236-104
root@odroid-n2:~$ lsmod | grep overlay
root@odroid-n2:~$

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by tobetter »

SirZevo wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:55 am
By simply running it?

Code: Select all

root@odroid-n2:~$ modprobe overlayfs
modprobe: FATAL: Module overlayfs not found in directory /lib/modules/4.9.236-104
root@odroid-n2:~$ lsmod | grep overlay
root@odroid-n2:~$
Sorry, you should try modeprobe overlay...exact driver name is overlay.ko.

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by SirZevo »

tobetter wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:57 am
Sorry, you should try modeprobe overlay...exact driver name is overlay.ko.

Code: Select all

root@odroid-n2:~$ modeprobe overlay
sudo: modeprobe: command not found
root@odroid-n2:~$ modeprobe overlay.ko
sudo: modeprobe: command not found
root@odroid-n2:~$ modprobe overlay.ko
modprobe: FATAL: Module overlay.ko not found in directory /lib/modules/4.9.236-104
root@odroid-n2:~$ lsmod | grep overlay.ko
root@odroid-n2:~$ 
I guess I have to read up on how this works... :lol:

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by tobetter »

SirZevo wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:06 am
tobetter wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:57 am
Sorry, you should try modeprobe overlay...exact driver name is overlay.ko.

Code: Select all

root@odroid-n2:~$ modeprobe overlay
sudo: modeprobe: command not found
root@odroid-n2:~$ modeprobe overlay.ko
sudo: modeprobe: command not found
root@odroid-n2:~$ modprobe overlay.ko
modprobe: FATAL: Module overlay.ko not found in directory /lib/modules/4.9.236-104
root@odroid-n2:~$ lsmod | grep overlay.ko
root@odroid-n2:~$ 
I guess I have to read up on how this works... :lol:
Sorry, my bad...not "modeprobe" and do "modprobe overlay".

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by SirZevo »

tobetter wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:18 am
Sorry, my bad...not "modeprobe" and do "modprobe overlay".
There we go. Do I need to do this every time after a reboot or is simply running it once enough?

Code: Select all

root@odroid-n2:~$ modprobe overlay
root@odroid-n2:~$ lsmod | grep overlay   
overlay                57344  0

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by mad_ady »

You can add it to /etc/modules and it will be loaded on boot.

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by tobetter »

SirZevo wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:39 am
tobetter wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:18 am
Sorry, my bad...not "modeprobe" and do "modprobe overlay".
There we go. Do I need to do this every time after a reboot or is simply running it once enough?

Code: Select all

root@odroid-n2:~$ modprobe overlay
root@odroid-n2:~$ lsmod | grep overlay   
overlay                57344  0
You can try to reboot and see if the driver is loaded automatically first. If the same driver is not loaded, add overlay to /etc/modules so system will load it on booting. Please check... :)

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by SirZevo »

mad_ady wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:41 am
You can add it to /etc/modules and it will be loaded on boot.
Thx :)
tobetter wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:42 am
You can try to reboot and see if the driver is loaded automatically first. If the same driver is not loaded, add overlay to /etc/modules so system will load it on booting. Please check... :)
Rebooted and lsmod | grep overlay did not return anything. So I ran the following and commented out modules that I don't need. Do you have a link or some information for the module firmware so I can see if I really need it? The name doesn't say much..

Code: Select all

root@odroid-n2:~$ echo "overlay" >> /etc/modules
root@odroid-n2:~$ lsmod | grep overlay
overlay                57344  0
root@odroid-n2:~$ sed -i 's/^\(amvdec\|decoder\|media\|stream.*\)/#\1/g' /etc/modules
Last edited by SirZevo on Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by tobetter »

SirZevo wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:44 am
mad_ady wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:41 am
You can add it to /etc/modules and it will be loaded on boot.
Thx :)
tobetter wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:42 am
You can try to reboot and see if the driver is loaded automatically first. If the same driver is not loaded, add overlay to /etc/modules so system will load it on booting. Please check... :)
Rebooted and lsmod | grep overlay did not return anything. So I ran the following and commented out modules that I don't need. Do you have a link or some information for the module firmware so I can see if I really need it? The name doesn't say much..

Code: Select all

root@odroid-n2:~$ echo "overlay" >> /etc/modules
root@odroid-n2:~$ lsmod | grep overlay
overlay                57344  0
root@odroid-n2:~$ sed -i 's/^\(amvdec\|decoder\|media\|stream.*\)/#\1/g' /etc/modules
Most lines in /etc/moduels are added by Hardkernel and the module names start with "am" are Amlogic driver for video decoding. They can be removed if you are not going to play a video.

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by SirZevo »

tobetter wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:56 am
Most lines in /etc/moduels are added by Hardkernel and the module names start with "am" are Amlogic driver for video decoding. They can be removed if you are not going to play a video.
I have removed all modules except from firmware. I don't know why that module is needed and can't find much information about it.

Regardless, everything is working fine on the 4.9 kernel after I enabled overlay. So for the time being, I have signal on my 4K TV, docker is fine and connected usb harddrives are fine :)

One more thing. Where can I find more information about which packages that are included in the 4.9 minimal image? I guess there exist a config with a list or something?
Last edited by SirZevo on Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by tobetter »

SirZevo wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:19 pm
tobetter wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:56 am
Most lines in /etc/moduels are added by Hardkernel and the module names start with "am" are Amlogic driver for video decoding. They can be removed if you are not going to play a video.
I have removed all modules except from "firmware". I don't know why that module is needed and can't find much information about it.

Regardless, everything is working fine on the 4.9 kernel after I enabled overlay. So for the time being, I have signal on my 4K TV, docker is fine and connected usb harddrives are fine :)

One more thing. Where can I find more information about which packages that are included in the 4.9 minimal image? I guess there exist a config with a list or something?
Do you mean like dpkg -l?

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by SirZevo »

tobetter wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:29 pm
Do you mean like dpkg -l?
No, not entirely as it will show all packages I have installed after the setup script as well. I was looking for a config that is used when making the image where all packages which are included are listed. If that is not public I have to go through the 1200 packages list with dpkg -l.

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by tobetter »

SirZevo wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:47 pm
tobetter wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:29 pm
Do you mean like dpkg -l?
No, not entirely as it will show all packages I have installed after the setup script as well. I was looking for a config that is used when making the image where all packages which are included are listed. If that is not public I have to go through the 1200 packages list with dpkg -l.
Ah...I see...Since I don't build the Ubuntu 20.04 with Linux 4.9 kernel, I do not have the detail but probably it's not many. I think you can open this file http://deb.odroid.in/n2/dists/focal/mai ... 4/Packages, and packages in the file must be installed from Hardkernel server.

You can try this command.

Code: Select all

wget -q -O - http://deb.odroid.in/n2/dists/focal/main/binary-arm64/Packages | grep ^Package

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by SirZevo »

Perfect! Thx for the incredible help and support :)

Code: Select all

root@odroid-n2:~$ wget -q -O - http://deb.odroid.in/n2/dists/focal/main/binary-arm64/Packages | grep ^Package
Package: aml-libs
Package: bootini
Package: kodi-fbdev
Package: kodi-fbdev-bin
Package: kodi-fbdev-data
Package: libqt5concurrent5
Package: libqt5core5a
Package: libqt5dbus5
Package: libqt5gui5
Package: libqt5network5
Package: libqt5opengl5
Package: libqt5opengl5-dev
Package: libqt5printsupport5
Package: libqt5sql5
Package: libqt5sql5-ibase
Package: libqt5sql5-mysql
Package: libqt5sql5-odbc
Package: libqt5sql5-psql
Package: libqt5sql5-sqlite
Package: libqt5sql5-tds
Package: libqt5test5
Package: libqt5widgets5
Package: libqt5xml5
Package: libsdl2-2.0-0
Package: libsdl2-dev
Package: libsdl2-doc
Package: linux-odroid-n2
Package: mali-fbdev
Package: qt5-default
Package: qt5-flatpak-platformtheme
Package: qt5-gtk-platformtheme
Package: qt5-qmake
Package: qt5-qmake-bin
Package: qt5-xdgdesktopportal-platformtheme
Package: qtbase5-dev
Package: qtbase5-dev-tools
Package: qtbase5-doc
Package: qtbase5-doc-dev
Package: qtbase5-doc-html
Package: qtbase5-examples
Package: qtbase5-private-dev
Package: u-boot

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by igorpec »

FYI. We don't provide minimal builds for N2 but its possible to build one. In any userland combination - Buster, Groovy, Focal, ... Armbian minimal is 600-700Mb uncompressed. Also for server cases there is no need sticking to old 4.9.y kernel.
ARMBIAN
Linux for ARM development boards
What is Armbian?

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by L67GS »

This would make a really cool how-to, doing a truly bare install and getting a couple basics like networking and maybe apt installed.
It seems like a lot of people find themselves using Linux for the first time when the get the SBC itch.
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istanbulls (Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:23 pm)

mad_ady
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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by mad_ady »

Usually "using linux for the first time" and a trully minimal image don't go well together. I'm using linux for 20 years now, and I find a minimal buildroot way too minimal for my taste...
Having a rich ecosystem of utilities (that most of the time only take up disk space when not in use) is what gives linux its power/versatility. Take those away and it looks more like an older unix system (have fond memories cursing Solaris/HP-UX systems for not having the GNU tools I grew up with)

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Re: Minimal images are NOT Minimal

Post by crashoverride »

Before things get too crazy, I thought I would add my comments ...

There is a difference between a "minimal image" and a "container image." A container image is the crazy part. It doesn't have enough to be useful as its expected that extra things will be added.

A "minimal image" should include OS+BSP (board support package). The BSP is key to having a useful minimal image. Ubuntu already defines what "minimal" is for OS packages [1]. The BSP should add anything required to make use of the entire device:

Code: Select all

Package: aml-libs
Package: bootini
Package: mali-fbdev
Package: linux-odroid-n2
Package: u-boot
The libsdl2, libqt5, and kodi all have a substantial amount of dependencies. I would suggest they be added to a meta-package "compat-odroid-n2" and left out of a minimal image.

[1] Based on feedback from the GO-Advance images, it should be noted that Ubuntu defines VIM as its "minimal" editor.

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