No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

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kostaman
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No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by kostaman » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:13 pm

CoreELEC BOOTING FROM sd CARD since purchased.

I powered on my Odroid N2 1st August 2019 and no Video or Audio just a Black screen.

LED’S red and blue all good.

Shows up on my Network.

HDMI no Video or Audio

Turn off TV Odroid N2 goes into suspend.
Turn on TV and Odroid N2 wakes up.
I can see the led’s

My TV notification reports new information (CEC) from the port but no Video/Audio.

I've always used SD Card booting.
Tried Fresh Installs of CoreELEC Nightlies and stable.
Same issue.

Tried the HK Android version which i tried when i first got the board same thing.

Yes i tried different cables and different ports on the TV.
Tried on another TV that has no CEC and no signal on that TV as well.

I’ve never had this issue with any build before.

Only received the N2 on the 15th April 2019.
My TV
Sharp 1080 TV
https://support.sharp.net.au/downloads/ ... 35X_om.pdf

Board details. Mine was the first 2gb batches that were delayed.
Invoice ID: HK1903276281
ODROID-N2 with 2GByte RAM
Item Number G190312026264
Received 15th April 2019

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by odroid » Mon Aug 05, 2019 1:32 pm

Please contact "odroid at hardkernel dot com" with a link of this post.
They will help your RMA process since you purchased the board from our web-store directly.

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by kostaman » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:46 am

Thank you.
I returned my Odroid N2 and was advised the board had failed.
HardKernel's response was as follows:

"HDMI_TX0_P, HDMI_TX0_N signal values issue. Since CPU cannot be replaced, we cannot repair your board.
We will keep your board for a month. If you want to receive your board, please let us know your PayPal account and delivery information.
We will send you an invoice for return shipping fee. ($23.00)"

Absolute Joke. HardKernel's Warranty is nothing but JUNK.
Until this warranty changes to 1 year on their hardware,
I advise people to NOT BUY.
Good luck on your your business model. :roll:
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wrxtasy (Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:08 pm)

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by Ozarks » Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:10 am

I have to agree.

A 4 weeks warranty is a joke.

But if it's displayed in their terms and conditions for all to see then it's a case of caveat emptor.

Not a good business model though and now that it's out in the open, many prospective purchasers are going to put off from ordering from any territory outside of their own, where theirs may offer more reasonable trading terms.

You could talk to your payment provider, who may take their own approach to protection and even consider such a business as too high a risk with such a short warranty.

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by wrxtasy » Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:11 pm

I'm going to be asking some serious question about this going forward with the aim to get HK to change their T&C on this very restrictive stance.

Prospective Kodi users purchasing direct from HK Korea will likely turn elsewhere unless HK reconsider their T&C.
Such restrictive consumer practices will not go down very well at all over on the Kodi forums & elsewhere.

Yes 4 weeks warranty is an absolute joke vs what the rest of the industry provide.

W.

The ball is now in your court HK, please change your T&C !
Last edited by wrxtasy on Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LibreELEC Krypton C2 HERE

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by Ozarks » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:31 pm

Even if you set aside the absurdity of a 4 weeks warranty from a contractual perspective or ethics of repair, the other message that it sends is that the vendor has no confidence in the lasting quality of their product.

If the eggs that I purchase can be guaranteed to last just short of a piece of electronic equipment then it says a lot.

Imagine if Samsung had to bring out a new phone every month to ensure users consistency of service.

The up side though for some is that it's actually cheaper to purchase from international resellers in their region, where you will get at least 12 months warranty as well.

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by noggin » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:31 pm

Has this warranty situation changed?

If it hasn't I'd make sure that any purchaser in Europe buys from a European retailer where you we be covered by EU warranty law (and distance selling legislation). I bought mine from the UK Odroid store which is part of Liliput Direct and based in the UK.

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by rooted » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:20 am

After a bit of research I believe most SBC have no warranty or a 30 day warranty, so why the expectation Hardkernel should be different?

Exceptions are the Asus Tinker Board and possibly the Raspberry Pi depending on reseller, while both of these could easily deny a claim by stating the board was damaged by improper use, short, static shock, etc.

While I would love to see a 6 month or 1 year warranty this doesn't seem feasible for a small company like Hardkernel on development devices with exposed GPIO.

Am I missing something, it's certainly possible?

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by mad_ady » Mon Dec 09, 2019 5:31 am

I think longer warranties can be enforced in one of two ways (both costing Hardkernel)
1. Upon detecting a fault, send a replacement unit to the customer without asking for the original back (to cut costs, improve customer feedback). This might cost them ~100$ per claim, but le's say the fault rate is so low that it's not a problem. Unfortunately, this being the real-world various individuals would find ways of faking faults to get free units that they can resell, and would hurt business.
2. Have regional suppliers with sock that can send and receive replacements. Shipping should be cheaper (e.g. have a center in EU, one in Northern America, one in Asia, one in South America, and Africa if sales there are worth it). The customer would pay for "regional" shipping (which could be post or something cheaper - since it should be reliable on short distances). HardKernel could get the broken boards monthly from the regional centers, or piggy-back them on some other shipments and do repairs at their own pace.
Of course, these centers would need logistics, people and a lot of money - I suspect costs would need to increase by at least 10% (I haven't made any calculations).

So, I don't know. Plan 2 might work for higher volume sales, or as a partnership with other competitors...

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by kostaman » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:15 am

rooted wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:20 am
After a bit of research I believe most SBC have no warranty or a 30 day warranty, so why the expectation Hardkernel should be different?

Exceptions are the Asus Tinker Board and possibly the Raspberry

Am I missing something, it's certainly possible?
You missed a small direct competitor Khadas who gives a 12 Month Warranty.

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by rooted » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:23 am

kostaman wrote:
rooted wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:20 am
After a bit of research I believe most SBC have no warranty or a 30 day warranty, so why the expectation Hardkernel should be different?

Exceptions are the Asus Tinker Board and possibly the Raspberry

Am I missing something, it's certainly possible?
You missed a small direct competitor Khadas who gives a 12 Month Warranty.
No I searched for Khadas warranty policy and all I came up with was.
Warranty is valid for thirty days, starting upon date of receipt.
On a reseller website which also is a Hardkernel reseller.

https://ameridroid.com/products/khadas-vim3

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by kostaman » Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:58 am

If you Google 'Khadas Warranty":
https://www.khadas.com/shop-faq
If anyone chooses to buy a product from a reseller that takes a lesser responsibility for warranty than the standard Khadas manufacturer 12 Months warranty ,
then they can take that up with their country's consumer laws or DONT BUY from them.

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by rooted » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:07 am

kostaman wrote:If you Google 'Khadas Warranty":
https://www.khadas.com/shop-faq
If anyone chooses to buy a product from a reseller that takes a lesser responsibility for warranty than the standard Khadas manufacturer 12 Months warranty ,
then they can take that up with their country's consumer laws or DONT BUY from them.
If you select https://www.khadas.com/distributors from the same page you will see Ameridroid is a authorized reseller, that's what I went by but I appreciate the link and information about the warranty period.

Like I said I'm not disputing a longer warranty period is a good idea, I just don't think HK's margins are adequate that they could offset the cost without passing it along to us.

I believe a good middle ground is offer a 1 year warranty for $5.00 or the appropriate amount according to device value, the customer would pay return shipping and HK would pay to ship it back. That way us who are perfectly happy assuming the risk of using developer devices can save money and those who want a warranty can simply purchase it with their order.


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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by Ameridroid » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:32 am

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. There is apparently a mistake on our Khadas page that is not reflecting the Khadas warranty period correctly. We'll get this corrected.

Most SBC manufacturers only offer a warranty of 30 days. We believe this is for a couple of reasons:

- Manufacturers make little to no money on SBCs, and therefore they cannot afford to offer long warranties on SBCs.
- SBCs are raw PCBs most of the time, and also are often used in DIY projects, both of which drastically increase the likelihood that they will get damaged. This increases warranty claims even though the problem wasn't related to defects in materials or workmanship, and it costs money for companies to respond to warranty claims even when those claims are not valid ones.

To respond to this, ameriDroid has implemented "Elevated Support and Replacement" plans that can be purchased along with your SBC. Upon purchase, the SBC's serial number is recorded by our shipping staff, and that SBC will then be covered for 1 year with elevated support, and replacement if it fails.

This comes in at about half the cost of popular add-on warranty programs such as SquareTrade, and also provides support from experienced SBC technicians.

If you're curious, you can check them out here: https://ameridroid.com/search?q=elevate ... ge,product

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by Ozarks » Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:24 pm

"- Manufacturers make little to no money on SBCs, and therefore they cannot afford to offer long warranties on SBCs.
- SBCs are raw PCBs most of the time, and also are often used in DIY projects, both of which drastically increase the likelihood that they will get damaged. This increases warranty claims even though the problem wasn't related to defects in materials or workmanship, and it costs money for companies to respond to warranty claims even when those claims are not valid ones."

Hogwash and complete absurdity.

Nobody goes into business and prices a product with a desire to make little or no money.

As far as the excuse that an SBC used in a DIY project increasing the likelihood of causing damage, there is one competing SBC product that does come with a decent warranty that debunks any such claims, the Raspberry Pi.

These so called "Elevated Support and Replacement" plans are just a way of making more money, hoping that people will be gullible enough to fall for the excuses.

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by mad_ady » Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:20 pm

This is how I picture the Ameridroid staff while reading your post :))
Image

Somehow I doubt they are bathing in money from all the extra warranty they're selling...
But it is like an insurance policy, and for it to work, the number of returned items must be way below the number of sold items. If they're offering it at all, it means that the vast majority of hardware is fine, otherwise they'd lose money.
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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by rooted » Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:23 pm

You can't really compare the Pi Foundation to Hardkernel, they sell more devices in 1 month than Hardkernel does in 6 months and their margins are much larger.

How much cash per device do you think these boards bring in?

I think being a large reseller Ameridroid may have more perspective on this subject than the typical consumer.
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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by Ozarks » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:02 pm

I am not really comparing the Pi foundation to hardkernel in the way that you state.

I am comparing one SBC to another that has the same "DIY" usage.

If, as is claimed, there is increased likelihood of damage from use then it does not matter how large the company is if boards are likely to be returned because of failure.

But if you wanted to compare the 2 companies based upon volume, then the same alleged likelihood of damage applies to each and so even when selling vast numbers, vast numbers of returns would take a heavy toll and yet the Pi Foundation can price competitively and offer at least a 1 year warranty.

Ergo the excuses provided are indeed hogwash and absurd.

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by kostaman » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:19 pm

Ameridroid wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:32 am

To respond to this, ameriDroid has implemented "Elevated Support and Replacement" plans that can be purchased along with your SBC. Upon purchase, the SBC's serial number is recorded by our shipping staff, and that SBC will then be covered for 1 year with elevated support, and replacement if it fails.

This comes in at about half the cost of popular add-on warranty programs such as SquareTrade, and also provides support from experienced SBC technicians.

If you're curious, you can check them out here: https://ameridroid.com/search?q=elevate ... ge,product
This pretty much covers the HardKernel non existent warranty. I like the Worldwide coverage as well.
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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by rooted » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:35 am

Ozarks wrote:I am not really comparing the Pi foundation to hardkernel in the way that you state.

I am comparing one SBC to another that has the same "DIY" usage.

If, as is claimed, there is increased likelihood of damage from use then it does not matter how large the company is if boards are likely to be returned because of failure.

But if you wanted to compare the 2 companies based upon volume, then the same alleged likelihood of damage applies to each and so even when selling vast numbers, vast numbers of returns would take a heavy toll and yet the Pi Foundation can price competitively and offer at least a 1 year warranty.

Ergo the excuses provided are indeed hogwash and absurd.
It's not hogwash, the Pi Foundation can afford to replace faulty devices because they have substantially more cash flow. It's as simple as that.

If people don't agree with the Hardkernel warranty they shouldn't purchase their products, they can find a device that suits their wants elsewhere.

Something I don't think most people understand is Hardkernel used to be lenient on the return policy until they learned the damage was almost always caused by user error or the inability to flash the correct OS. They would get these "faulty" devices and they would either work fine, have damage caused by electrical short, or from overpowering them with the wrong AC adapter.

If you damage one of these devices with a 1 year warranty chances are it won't get replaced. It's the reason Raspberry Pi's always use a nonsensical power connector method instead of proper barrel connectors, to cut down on people using the wrong voltage power adapter.

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by Ameridroid » Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:19 am

When our founder started out with one of the first Raspberry Pi boards from the first batch produced, he ran into issues with the unit freezing up for no apparent reason after less than 24 hours of running a task. He tested numerous OSes with different software packages, different SD cards and different power supplies to make sure it wasn't a software or accessory error. He tried to make a warranty claim through circuitous and maze-like channels. The effort filing a warranty claim was hardly worth the $35 board cost. In addition, the claim was denied. In short, a 1 year warranty isn't any good if there is no practical help for SBC board issues.

The silver lining is that he then went in search of a more reliable SBC, and found it with the ODROID-U2. The U2 could take everything he threw at it and was exceedingly more stable. This was the start of ameriDroid, even though the distribution company didn't come into existence until 2 years later.

It is true that in general most SBC manufacturers (and distributors) make little to no margin on the SBCs they sell. They tend to make their money on accessories only. The reason is because of the price pressure that the Raspberry Pi Foundation has created by their pricing structure. Due to the volume of components that the Foundation goes through (40 million SBCs sold, and counting) and their extremely strong relationship with Broadcom, they have significant leverage to make more profit at their price point when compared to most other SBC manufacturers who are lucky to sell 10% as many boards.

Khadas has a different business model. They produce boards that are targeted at the high-end consumer, and have profit margins built in so they can offer 1 year warranties and 20% Black Friday sales. This is great for people who don't mind spending the extra money for these benefits. You can easily see this price difference when you compare the features of a Khadas board with a comparable ODROID or Pine64 board, for example. You won't see most SBC manufacturers other than a few (like Khadas) offering a 20% Black Friday sale on their SBCs, simply because they would likely be losing 15% or more on each board they sold at that price. ameriDroid offered a 5% Black Friday Cyber Monday coupon of which a lot of customers took advantage.

We'll be completely open here. ameriDroid operates at around a 10% gross margin (before applying 5% coupons), including SBCs, accessories, consulting services (https://ameridroid.com/pages/services) and everything else. This margin needs to cover import shipping, customs and duties, staff salaries, rent, utilities and web hosting, insurance and taxes, infrastructure, accounting fees, warranty claims, and the extremely high cost of living in California. We're lucky if we have a dollar left at the end of the month to wipe our sweat and tears with. If it wasn't for the ability to split some expenses with our parent company, ameriDroid would've gone "belly up" more than once in the past 5 years. But all of these challenges are offset by our love of SBCs, tinkering, helping our customers, and getting to do work that we enjoy in a state that has a lot of beauty. We can also guarantee from personal experience dealing with them that most SBC manufacturers aren't "rolling in the dough" either.

Everyone is free to believe what they want about how much better SBC manufacturers and distributors have it financially than anyone else. Our founder drives a 2004 sedan with 200,000 miles on it and a bad suspension, and a beat-up 1978 Ford pickup truck when he needs to haul stuff. Our shipping van is a 2000 Honda Odyssey with 280,000 miles on it. There are no Porches, BMWs or Mercedes in our employee parking lot. But we're OK with that (at least, most of us are). Eben Upton from the Raspberry Pi Foundation probably has at least one business suit worth more than any of our founders' vehicles, and that's OK. Eben's Foundation has more than £25M of assets, and he's directly responsible for that. One consolation is our founder still has that original Raspberry Pi that freezes, and a few more since then that he hasn't bothered to try to RMA for similar issues.

In closing, if you love the products that HK supplies, like the ODROID-H2, N2, XU4, etc., and you appreciate the efforts of distributors like ameriDroid, we'd really appreciate your support. It brings a smile to our faces when we drive our modest vehicles to our modest dwellings in the evening, enjoying modest meals with our families.
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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by kostaman » Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:21 am

Ameridroid wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:19 am
In closing, if you love the products that HK supplies, like the ODROID-H2, N2, XU4, etc., and you appreciate the efforts of distributors like ameriDroid, we'd really appreciate your support. It brings a smile to our faces when we drive our modest vehicles to our modest dwellings in the evening, enjoying modest meals with our families.
Your business model fits in with the vast majority of people who purchase these products around the world and i have made sure the members of CoreELEC are aware of your business. :D
https://discourse.coreelec.org/t/hardke ... u=kostaman
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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by pherrmann » Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:24 pm

Ameridroid wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:32 am
To respond to this, ameriDroid has implemented "Elevated Support and Replacement" plans that can be purchased along with your SBC. Upon purchase, the SBC's serial number is recorded by our shipping staff, and that SBC will then be covered for 1 year with elevated support, and replacement if it fails.

This comes in at about half the cost of popular add-on warranty programs such as SquareTrade, and also provides support from experienced SBC technicians.

If you're curious, you can check them out here: https://ameridroid.com/search?q=elevate ... ge,product
What happens if I bought an N2 before you started offering the "Elevated Support and Replacement" option? can I buy it in retrospect and have my faulty board replaced?

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by rooted » Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:30 pm


pherrmann wrote: What happens if I bought an N2 before you started offering the "Elevated Support and Replacement" option? can I buy it in retrospect and have my faulty board replaced?
Your board is currently broken?

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by pherrmann » Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:14 pm

rooted wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:30 pm
pherrmann wrote: What happens if I bought an N2 before you started offering the "Elevated Support and Replacement" option? can I buy it in retrospect and have my faulty board replaced?
Your board is currently broken?
Yeah, 4K output is not working properly. Full of white artefacts and screeching noise from the tv.
And yes, I changed the cables several times. Including monoprice certified cables and even and had a Ultra High Speed cable.
HDMI port must be ill.

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by Ameridroid » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:40 am

@pherrmann

The bad news: Unfortunately, that wouldn't work for us from an economical perspective. We have to basically "gamble" that customers who buy the plan won't have a problem with their board when they purchase it, because most customers don't. If we know you already have a problem, that means we would have to send you a replacement board which costs us just about as much as you paid for yours originally, we wouldn't even ask for your board back (because it is worthless to us as it is outside of HK's warranty) and all we get for it is less than $10 which barely covers shipping in most cases.

That's also why most insurance companies won't cover "pre-existing conditions".

The good news: From now on, our customers can protect themselves with a small investment up front against problems caused by defects in materials or workmanship, and even get help with usability concerns.

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by pherrmann » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:59 pm

Ameridroid wrote:
Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:40 am
@pherrmann

The bad news: Unfortunately, that wouldn't work for us from an economical perspective. We have to basically "gamble" that customers who buy the plan won't have a problem with their board when they purchase it, because most customers don't. If we know you already have a problem, that means we would have to send you a replacement board which costs us just about as much as you paid for yours originally, we wouldn't even ask for your board back (because it is worthless to us as it is outside of HK's warranty) and all we get for it is less than $10 which barely covers shipping in most cases.
I've expected as much. So pretty much toss the device away and buy something else.

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Re: No HDMI signal SD Boot CoreELEC

Unread post by Ozarks » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:45 am

rooted wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:35 am
Ozarks wrote:I am not really comparing the Pi foundation to hardkernel in the way that you state.

I am comparing one SBC to another that has the same "DIY" usage.

If, as is claimed, there is increased likelihood of damage from use then it does not matter how large the company is if boards are likely to be returned because of failure.

But if you wanted to compare the 2 companies based upon volume, then the same alleged likelihood of damage applies to each and so even when selling vast numbers, vast numbers of returns would take a heavy toll and yet the Pi Foundation can price competitively and offer at least a 1 year warranty.

Ergo the excuses provided are indeed hogwash and absurd.
It's not hogwash, the Pi Foundation can afford to replace faulty devices because they have substantially more cash flow. It's as simple as that.

If people don't agree with the Hardkernel warranty they shouldn't purchase their products, they can find a device that suits their wants elsewhere.

Something I don't think most people understand is Hardkernel used to be lenient on the return policy until they learned the damage was almost always caused by user error or the inability to flash the correct OS. They would get these "faulty" devices and they would either work fine, have damage caused by electrical short, or from overpowering them with the wrong AC adapter.

If you damage one of these devices with a 1 year warranty chances are it won't get replaced. It's the reason Raspberry Pi's always use a nonsensical power connector method instead of proper barrel connectors, to cut down on people using the wrong voltage power adapter.
Cashflow has nothing to do with it because if all SBC's were subject to high levels of failure then the ratio of returns to volume of sales would negate any cash flow.

The Pi foundation also started off small and had to build it's sales and reputation by producing reliable products that came with a decent warranty.

No business is going to hope to grow if it is unable or unwilling to show confidence in it's build quality.

The Odroid name is only damaged by such a poor business move and the more folk read about the continuing failures, the less likely that the name will last for too long.

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