Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

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Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by venkatbo » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:51 am

Given that the ODROID-H2 is facing CPU supply issues, an early replacement is likely...

Feel free to add your wish-list here, including but not limited to:
  • x86 compatibilty
  • CPU vendor, model
  • Architecture, Cores/threads
  • RAM type/slots/capacity
  • I/O (USB3, USB C, audio, display ports, ...)
  • Networking (GigE or higher, Single or multi Rj45), WiFi, mesh, ...
  • BT
  • GPIO
  • Debuggability
  • Storage
  • Boot type
  • Boot media
  • Form factor
  • Cooling
  • Power envelope
  • Clustering possibility
  • Headless operation
  • Multi-model: IoT, Media Player, Gaming, ...
  • OS's

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by powerful owl » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:16 am

It's hard to be all things to all people... but what about a modular solution? Put the CPU on the same type of extrusion as the HC2 but a bit shorter. Use the space for NVMe and PCIe expansion. Drives can be added in additional chassis which just stack on top, with some consideration for routing the SATA cables.

A standard fan connector?

[Update] I guess I'm not really answering the question... I think the overall H2 configuration is pretty sweet as it is but the eMMC and displayport don't seem necessary. After thinking about it for a bit I'm fine with the N4100, a slightly lower price makes the H2 more competitive while still being 4-core x86.

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by rooted » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:09 am

Abandon Intel since they are so difficult to deal with and go with AMD Ryzen, depending on cost of course.

I'm not sure what the V1000 can be had for.
Last edited by rooted on Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by meveric » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:50 am

I also say consider AMD Ryzen, better CPU/GPU for lower price.
Not sure about video decoder or PCIe lanes and stuff though.
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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by rooted » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:05 am

meveric wrote:I also say consider AMD Ryzen, better CPU/GPU for lower price.
Not sure about video decoder or PCIe lanes and stuff though.
http://www.amd.com/Documents/V1000-Fami ... -Brief.pdf

16 lanes PCIe.

1ghz GPU

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by meveric » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:23 pm

The V1605B looks really nice, especially with the dual 10Gbit Ethernet, 4 cores 8 threads, and still rather low TDP
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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by odroid » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:32 pm

$300~$500 range seems NOT to be a marketable price. :(
https://hexus.net/tech/news/mainboard/1 ... therboard/

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by meveric » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:45 pm

nope, that price is too high obviously.
still one could dream, right? :D

Also let's see how market is going to change in one or two years.
I still believe AMD will be better hardware for lower price (CPU/GPU wise) for comparable Intel SoCs.
Question is if it's feasible to make a decently priced board out of the SoC.

Maybe the R series?
https://www.amd.com/en/products/embedded-r-series-soc
or Ryzen R?
https://www.amd.com/en/products/specifi ... dded/11411
It seems there aren't any prizes for the later ones yet, although they are already planed to market as a Intel NUC concurrence.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/14615/as ... 87liter-pc
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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by odroid » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:08 pm

As far as I heard, the Ryzen embedded APU is terribly expensive.
It seems to be a main reason why UDOO BOLT V8 is 389,40 €. :o
https://eu.mouser.com/Search/Refine?Ntk ... =135138089

R series APU might be cheaper. But it must be still over $100 at least.

I also want to have an ODROID board which can emulate the PS2 games. ;)

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by meveric » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:35 pm

odroid wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:08 pm
I also want to have an ODROID board which can emulate the PS2 games. ;)
https://www.libretro.com/index.php/play ... -buildbot/

Technically Play! should be able to run on embedded devices, as long as it has OpenGL ES 3 support.
So ODROID XU3/XU4, N1, N2.

Not sure if it's working for Linux though, but Android it should already work.
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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by odroid » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:00 pm

It must be way too slow.
It was not playable even with the H2 while a more powerful Ryzen 2200G platform showed a playable performance.

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by RomaT » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:52 pm

What I like about the H2 - size less than miniITX, PCIe bus in M2, I2C bus in GPIO, eMMC.
Honestly, I took it only because of I2C for LCD 2004, there was no other reason,
because already I had Asus H310T with processor G5500, which already decided all other desires :)

I do not think advantage H2 - dual 1Gbe, rather, it is the loss of the second slot M2 with two PCIe lanes.
The disadvantage is the loss of 4 USB ports, of the eight, we have only four.

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by abelger » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:27 am

I also own the ODROID-HC2 for exploring CEPH.
https://docs.ceph.com/docs/jewel/start/ ... endations/
The Limiations of the ODROID-HC2 is the memory an the Ethernet connections.

When using Ceph in a high availability environment you should use redundant bounded Ethernet connections to two Switches so your OSD is accessible even if one switch fails.
This can be done by using LACP on IRF able HP Switches or may be on the new Netgear switches also.
The point is redundancy if one switch fails, the LACP bound is still running on the remaining switch.

So 2x 1Gbit Ethernet are ok, but if you like to use both SATA Connectors for OSDs 4x 1Gb Ethernet would be better.
Because a high performance SATA HDD can have a data transferrate o up to 260MB/s.
So you have the brandwidth of 2 x 1Gb Ethernet per OSD or in a LACP 4x 1Gb Ethenert for two SATA SSDs.
This is full in the recommendation of CEPH for the OSD see the link above.

If you want to use big SATA SSDs to start small scale with big HDDS the ODROID-H2 is perfect because of the SO-DIMM slots you can put in up to 32GB RAM.
The biggest SATA HDDs on the market are now 16TB . And the recommendation of CEPH is 1GB RAM for 1 TB for HDD Space in the OSD .
You have 32GB RAM available so its is perfect for up to 2x16 TB HDD the biggest SATA HDDs currently available.

And if you use a hypervisor like Proxmox, which supports Ceph quite well you can use the spare RAM for VMs like pfSense, a PBX etc if you use a VLANs .
If you put your WAN , Storage, and PBX etc. in separate VLANa.

A perfect small and efficient solution which excellent scalability, especial for small to medium companies.

If you add a modular case like on the ODROID-HC2 may be for a 19" enclosure and power plugs for redundant 12V power of a standard PC & 19" power supply you can sell it as modular Microserver Modules.
Adjustable for the needs of the users.
Add a How to on the forum and it will sell by it self.

It is like a small mircroserver where you can experiment with CEPH but without the cost of a server cluster appliance like the "Ambedded Mars 400 (Ceph) microserver plattform".
The 32GB SO-DIMM give the opportunity to use it for low performance virtualization task as well as for CEPH.

Modules with access for hot swap able HDDa in a 19" enclosure would greatly improve the acceptance because, convincing your boss on something where he can see the CPU and the HDDs are screwed fix is not really convincing.
But it you can sell in in that way it could be a perfect solution or many people who want to have a professional solution but don't want to start with an investment of at least 5000$.
And when you reduce to cost for investigating with a somewhow professional option which is also good in performance you have a winner.
Only a OSD node with a SSD would need 10GB Ethernet in a Ceph environment by to way but 2x 1GB per SATA HDDs is ok.
By the way i try to use a m.2 2x 1GB ethernet controller on my ODROID-H2 which i have received today.
It is not a good solution but so i get the brandwidth.


If hope to see a killer product, which in this case may don't need a very high power CPU because of the small task. But it may sell better because you nearly can't get a SBC x86 CPU with 32GB RAM and more than 1x 1GB Ethernet.

;-)

Do it prepare a demo solution for CEPH and spread the possibilities.

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by rooted » Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:02 am

Those prices certainly remove AMD from the equation.

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by brunoscorreia » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:23 am

And what about the AMD's new processor that's been used on the Atari CVS? It's still too expensive for this new sbc?

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by odroid » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:53 am

Right. Ryzen R-series is expensive too.

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by AreaScout » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:19 am

odroid wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:08 pm
I also want to have an ODROID board which can emulate the PS2 games. ;)
I have tried two, GoW II which was too slow and Gradius V which worked just fine :)



RG
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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by RomaT » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:26 pm

It would be cool if instead of integrated NICs there was a second M2 connector with two lanes PCIe
and in accessories they sold M2 dual 1Gbps NICs and M2 SATA controller or even M.2 Wi-Fi with bluetooth
everyone could choose what is more important to him...
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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by mad_ady » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:43 pm

@RomaT - it might be problematic to lay-out the connector and the adapter cards in a way that they are compatible with the cases. But yes, I think it would be a great idea. Until someone wants to use both ports and then you need to make sure there is enough room around...

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by RomaT » Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:00 pm

Manufacturers motherboards have long been using vertical M2 connectors, for Wi-Fi/BT controller.
for NIC, SATA or Wi-Fi controllers need only 42mm in height, radiator side.
in place of the GPIO connector easily fits, and GPIO to make in a more economical connector elsewhere.
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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by tmihai20 » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:46 pm

I would like to have better NICs than Realtek (Intel or any other manufacturer that people around the forums talked about). Keep the small form factor, if you can squeeze one more M.2 port to be use with adapters liek @RomaT it would be really nice. Try to see if you can somehow get 2.5 Gbit NICs in it, even if it would mean to only have one NIC.

Regarding storage, keep the 2 SATA ports and the 2 USB 2.0 + 2 USB 3.0 ports. Ditch the eMMC/microSD if SATA or M.2 SSD could be used.

About processor, this is the most tricky part. Definitely keep it as x86 (like H2 has). Try to get any AMD CPU that is a lot easier to source than Intel CPU. If you manage to get enough horsepower in it, I would pay around 200 USD for a board. I am looking for something small enough, but powerful enough to emulate PS2. Try getting any AMD Ryzen CPU, Intel seems not to be a good partner in this regard.

Final words: I would keep the H2-A with N4100 and prepare for a higher end H3 (even if it would cost more than 200 USD, but if it had enough horsepower to do serious emulation).
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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by gokuz » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:55 am

@odroid

Any plans on releasing a newer model?
I feel the best way to go is to ditch 1gbe altogether. Yes, I mean no network, nada, zero. It will blow our brains, also, 2.5gbe realtek USB adapters can be bought for cheap. Don't waste PCIE for 1gbe anymore.

With that, 2 pcie lanes are available for another m.2 pcie slot. Keep everything else the same. Best idea ever, these will sell like hot cakes, you can thank me later.

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by rooted » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:44 pm

No Ethernet is a ridiculous notion, most wouldn't buy an SBC with no onboard networking. How do you assume WoL would function over USB?

Just because this suits your purpose doesn't mean it would appeal to the masses.

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by RomaT » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:27 pm

why did you decide that your opinion is masses? and how many uses WoL?
Do you have market research data?

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by back2future » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:58 am

An H3 is probably more likely a "keeping the level"¹ device, because improvements at that price category (!=hyperscaling) are getting harder and comparable boards with mainline support are increasing in numbers.
"Slightly" better cpu/gpu(/npu)/ram/storage speed, bandwidth and maybe latencies, additional network channels for network bandwidth improvements and all with keeping that low idling and relatively low TDP power requirements.
We won't see usb 4.0 before pcie 4.0 (even 5.0 Intel_~2020?, power requirements/cost?) probably and it is questionable if there is real need for 40Gbps_(2020/)2021_thunderboltlike at this performance level (beside interconnect/inifiniband between SoC's on or for server boards) and demand for 100W devices support would be comparable to usb 3.2 standard. Lpddr4x could have a recommended 6GB ram at least for 64bit standard os, but more likely x64 will keep (an additional) dual(/quad) ddr4 socket for so-dimm for higher ram flexibility? (If it could be dimm, there'd be a possibility for UPMEM's PIM-DRAM. Somekind of moving parts of cpu (SHIFT+X instructions DataProcUnit's) onto memory modules.)
Every new idea for input or sensors would be an interesting surprise.

[ 1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s ... 1-2018.png Transistor doubling mostly done through multi core solutions nowadays and no comparison for specific 2D/3D "core (cpu/gpu/.../memory)" area?
2) CNFET https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1335098 ]
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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by elatllat » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:32 am

Intel lists 16 GB RAM max so maybe the Max CPU / board is also wrong.
Unlikely but it would be amusing.

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by rooted » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:59 pm

RomaT wrote:why did you decide that your opinion is masses? and how many uses WoL?
Do you have market research data?
Well let's ask.

How many here have the equipment to support networking faster than 1 gigabit?

Who uses WoL on there PCs?

Who would buy an SBC without integrated networking?

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by RomaT » Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:24 pm

1. Not quite correct. it's not about the mandatory installation of a network card faster than 1Gbps
we are talking about the second M2 connector with two lanes PCIe, instead of integrated dual 1GbE.
2. I do not use
3. I would take it, provided there is where to connect the network interface (PCIe or USB - by the way 4 of them are stolen, should be 8 USB ports )
if I got an advantage in the additional PCIe connector (m.2).
which I can use to connect alternative network interfaces or SAT/TV/Radio tuner or capture card or Raid/SATA controller or Graphic card ...
rooted wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:44 pm
ridiculous
IMHO - ridiculous is spending two lanes PCIe on a dual 1Gbps network interface.
especially considering the fact that you can install on them a two network card (for example on Intel I350 AM4 support WoL) with four ports by 1 Gbps
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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by rooted » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:17 pm

Ridiculous was too strong a word, I just can't relate to having an SBC without integrated gigabit Ethernet.

I understand the PCIe situation and see what you mean.

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Re: Ideas for an ODROID-H2 replacement (ODROID-H3 ;?)

Unread post by RomaT » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:26 pm

To support such users, you can install a network chip through USB3.0
As it was previous versions of ODROID (for example XU4/HC1/HC2/MC1),
where the speed of 1 Gbps is not inferior to the physical,
then the interests of all parties will be respected.

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