J4105 vs N4100

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 32677
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 364 times
Contact:

J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by odroid » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:33 pm

Our H2 Rev-B second batch is almost gone. I think it will be sold out again within a few weeks.

So we tried to secure more J4105 CPUs from Intel few weeks ago.
Unfortunately, they still have the serious Wafer shortage problem and they told us there is no more J4105 in this year.
In that case, we have to wait another several months again. :(

Their counter proposal is the N4100. They told us the N4100 supplying chain is much more stable and slightly cheaper.
Please look into this comparison table.
https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_c ... _j4105-841
Multi-core performance seems to be identical since the maximum clock is locked at 2.4Ghz when four CPUs are running in parallel.
The GPU performance is slightly(6~7%) lower but others are exactly same.

Therefore, the next H2 Rev-C will have the N4100 instead of the J4105 if we can't source J4105 anymore.
The price will be dropped to $105 from $111 probably.

Any comments are appreciated.
These users thanked the author odroid for the post (total 2):
mad_ady (Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:44 pm) • rmkimathi (Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:11 pm)

User avatar
mad_ady
Posts: 6860
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:00 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: XU4, C1+, C2, N1, H2, N2
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Has thanked: 236 times
Been thanked: 177 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by mad_ady » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:47 pm

Isn't the 4100 the cpu you used on the early H2 prototypes? It should be good enough, though maybe the product name should be slightly altered in order not to confuse buyers when running benchmarks. Like H2A or something to show it's not exactly the same. Lower price would be welcomed by all :)
These users thanked the author mad_ady for the post:
rmkimathi (Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:10 pm)

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 32677
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 364 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by odroid » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:50 pm

Different naming is a good idea. :)

Yes, we tested the N4100 last year and there was no issue.

RomaT
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:48 pm
languages_spoken: Russian
ODROIDs: -H2 rev.B, -XU3, -XU4, -C1, -C2, -W, -VU, CloudShell
Location: Perm, Russia
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 44 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by RomaT » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:10 pm

Remove two network interfaces, give the user two more PCIe lanes.
or integrate controller SATA on Marvell 9235/9230 ...
and add USB ports on GPIO

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 32677
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 364 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by odroid » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:16 pm

@RomaT,
We can't do that since many people are loving the dual NIC as well as M.2 NVMe features.
Anyway, it seems to be an off-topic.
Please make a new topic about H3.
These users thanked the author odroid for the post:
canoodle (Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:38 am)

daviessm
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:14 am
languages_spoken: English, German
ODROIDs: X2, XU4
Location: Belfast, UK
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by daviessm » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:20 pm

I'm looking to buy one when you have case type 1 in stock, N4100 looks like it would be fine for me.

User avatar
venkatbo
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:10 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C0/C1+/C2; U3+; XU3-Lite/XU4; H2; VU/VU7+; Touchscreen Show TFT Cloudshell SmartPower mAHRS DAC GPS Multiscope Ocam
Location: Bay Area, California
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by venkatbo » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:23 pm

Would J5005 be an option?

127.0.0.1
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:24 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: XU4
3 x H2 in a 3 node vSphere cluster.
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by 127.0.0.1 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:41 pm

I would also vote for the Pentium J5005.

aw_
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:50 am
languages_spoken: english
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by aw_ » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:29 am

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/In ... 3159vs3270

Based only on technical/performance, I'd vote for the J5005 too (+10% perf vs -14%), but I suspect any of the desktop Gemini Lake processors suffer from the same supply issues and the jump from Celeron to Pentium may price it out of the market for the H2. The Pentium N5000 closes the performance gap a bit but pricing might still be an issue with its branding. They're all very similar:

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... 989,128983
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/micr ... s/goldmont_

PigLover
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:55 am
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C2, XU4, HC1, MC1
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by PigLover » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:26 am

Can you confirm that the N4100 will also support 32gb ram? I know that the ‘J’ series processors have always supported more than Intel claims on Ark but it’s not clear that is true on the ‘N’ series parts.

User avatar
venkatbo
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:10 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C0/C1+/C2; U3+; XU3-Lite/XU4; H2; VU/VU7+; Touchscreen Show TFT Cloudshell SmartPower mAHRS DAC GPS Multiscope Ocam
Location: Bay Area, California
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by venkatbo » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:31 am

If you intend to retain the board design (BGA1090 socket, Gemini Lake, Goldmont Plus), then you are limited to just these 4core/4thread CPUs:
Celeron:
. Intel Celeron J4105 7. 1.50 GHz 2.50 GHz 2.40 GHz 4 No BGA 1090
. Intel Celeron N4100 7. 1.10 GHz 2.40 GHz 2.40 GHz 4 No BGA 1090
Pentium
. Intel Pentium J5005 7. 1.50 GHz 2.80 GHz 2.70 GHz 4 No BGA 1090
. Intel Pentium N5000 7. 1.10 GHz 2.70 GHz 2.70 GHz 4 No BGA 1090

https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu_famil ... _celeron-8
https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu_famil ... _pentium-4
http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/100/In ... J5005.html

If Celeron CPUs suffer from the same supply woes, you may as well go with the Mobile Pentiums, presuming their supplies look good...

Pentium J5005 or N5000 look like good pin-compatible alternatives

User avatar
n2qcn
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:38 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: H2 N2
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by n2qcn » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:15 am

Pls don't go down. There are a lot of N4100 SBCs out there, granted none with two ethernets and NVMe but this premium product deserves a bump up not down. While I don't need the faster graphics of the J5005, I would still pay for the upgrade.

There are some Intel deals out there, but most are older FCBGA1168 designs. At that point the AMD with more PCIe lanes becomes a better investment.

https://www.cnx-software.com/2019/07/26 ... omparison/

Image

User avatar
rooted
Posts: 6878
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:12 am
languages_spoken: english
Location: Gulf of Mexico, US
Has thanked: 267 times
Been thanked: 58 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by rooted » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:03 am

I agree, I think it would be worth the extra $10 to go with the 5005.

While the N4100 is adequate (the preproduction H2 works great) I just don't think it's worth saving a few $$$ for such a hit in single core performance.
Last edited by rooted on Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

daviessm
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:14 am
languages_spoken: English, German
ODROIDs: X2, XU4
Location: Belfast, UK
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by daviessm » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:09 am

I'd pay the extra too.

soerenderfor
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:01 pm
languages_spoken: Danish, English
ODROIDs: ODROID U3, ODROID C2, ODROID XU4, ODROID N2, ODROID H2.
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by soerenderfor » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:10 am

Pay extra here too

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 32677
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 364 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by odroid » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:16 am

Gemini Lake Pentium series is way more expensive.
Are you really willing to pay the extra $45?
These users thanked the author odroid for the post:
soerenderfor (Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:20 am)

RomaT
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:48 pm
languages_spoken: Russian
ODROIDs: -H2 rev.B, -XU3, -XU4, -C1, -C2, -W, -VU, CloudShell
Location: Perm, Russia
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 44 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by RomaT » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:36 am

I would agree to a N4100, but I would pay extra for the lack of network interfaces in favor of SATA controller or the second M2 connector with two PCIe lanes.
For 1GbE, it's a pity to spend PCIe, 1GbE can be obtained from the USB, even 5GBE already have USB adapters.
would not prevent additional ports USB at GPIO or instead of Ethernet ports ...

User avatar
venkatbo
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:10 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C0/C1+/C2; U3+; XU3-Lite/XU4; H2; VU/VU7+; Touchscreen Show TFT Cloudshell SmartPower mAHRS DAC GPS Multiscope Ocam
Location: Bay Area, California
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by venkatbo » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:02 am

Please retain the 2 ethernet ports as you have now... since USB3 adapter-based approach could cause a throughput problem with the single controller behind them. There is only 1 dual-eth board in your portfolio. Please keep it, if possible.

Its a problem if the cost delta is $45, unless of course, it is possible to create 2 "versions" - one with N4100, one with J5005... :-)

RomaT
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:48 pm
languages_spoken: Russian
ODROIDs: -H2 rev.B, -XU3, -XU4, -C1, -C2, -W, -VU, CloudShell
Location: Perm, Russia
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 44 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by RomaT » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:23 am

With the second M2 connector, it is still possible to install a dual or even quadruple Ethernet controller.
it just greatly expands the possibilities for other users.
for example, I would be interested to install an additional SATA controller and 10GBE, some are already doing dual 40GBe
and dual 1GBE become meaningless loss of two PCIe lanes, which could be used for other devices.
besides, there will be a place on the connectors, for four more ports lost by USB
the processor has 8, of them we were given only 4
Last edited by RomaT on Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:08 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
rooted
Posts: 6878
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:12 am
languages_spoken: english
Location: Gulf of Mexico, US
Has thanked: 267 times
Been thanked: 58 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by rooted » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:45 am

odroid wrote:Gemini Lake Pentium series is way more expensive.
Are you really willing to pay the extra $45?
That is a ridiculous amount they are asking.

RomaT
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:48 pm
languages_spoken: Russian
ODROIDs: -H2 rev.B, -XU3, -XU4, -C1, -C2, -W, -VU, CloudShell
Location: Perm, Russia
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 44 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by RomaT » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:54 am

amuses and penny savings on input power converters,
where it was possible to install a PWM controller with bypass (duty cycle from 0 to 100%), for power supply from 12V to 19V, with preservation of power connector SATA +12V
not to mention the normal PWM fan controller...
but it all pales before the pointless loss of two PCIe lanes on the insignificant double 1GBE
Last edited by RomaT on Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

soerenderfor
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:01 pm
languages_spoken: Danish, English
ODROIDs: ODROID U3, ODROID C2, ODROID XU4, ODROID N2, ODROID H2.
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by soerenderfor » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:23 am

odroid wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:16 am
Gemini Lake Pentium series is way more expensive.
Are you really willing to pay the extra $45?
Of course, for a good pice of hardware no problem. Not much in my book.. 300 Danish Krones.. It is 12 pack of 200g butter or 1 piece of RPI3B+ :D

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 32677
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 364 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by odroid » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:36 am

Normally, we have to spend more than five months to make a new PCB design if we consider CE/FCC/KC/RoHS certification.
So we have no plan to make a different x86 hardware at this moment.
We are just considering changing the CPU only since all the Gemini Lake SoCs are pin-to-pin compatible.

Possible options:
- Wait several months (until we can buy J4105 again).
- Sell H2-A with N4100 at $105 two months later.
- Sell H2-B with J5005 at $149 two months later.

RomaT
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:48 pm
languages_spoken: Russian
ODROIDs: -H2 rev.B, -XU3, -XU4, -C1, -C2, -W, -VU, CloudShell
Location: Perm, Russia
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 44 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by RomaT » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:39 am

Better 2.4 kg of butter than RPi8z++

domih
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:48 pm
languages_spoken: English, French
ODROIDs: UX4, HC2, N2, H2.
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 35 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by domih » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:42 am

The N4100 is slower than the J4105 both on the CPU and GPU sides. See https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... 983,128989

I'd rather go with Pentium Silver J5005 which is slightly faster than the J4105 in both departments. Really not attracted by the N4100.

Extra $45? Really? I'm starting to suspect that Intel discovered that the J4105 is too good and is therefore slowly killing it. On the other hand it seems they can't get rid of their N4100 stock.

You should check whether or not Intel guarantees the production of the Pentium Silver J5005.

RomaT
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:48 pm
languages_spoken: Russian
ODROIDs: -H2 rev.B, -XU3, -XU4, -C1, -C2, -W, -VU, CloudShell
Location: Perm, Russia
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 44 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by RomaT » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:45 am

so make two models, on N4100 and J5005.
I would choose J5005, true only if there is a second M2 slot with two PCIe lanes or controller SATA, instead of double 1GBE

domih
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:48 pm
languages_spoken: English, French
ODROIDs: UX4, HC2, N2, H2.
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 35 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by domih » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:55 am

odroid wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:36 am
Normally, we have to spend more than five months to make a new PCB design if we consider CE/FCC/KC/RoHS certification.
So we have no plan to make a different x86 hardware at this moment.
We are just considering changing the CPU only since all the Gemini Lake SoCs are pin-to-pin compatible.

Possible options:
- Wait several months (until we can buy J4105 again).
- Sell H2-A with N4100 at $105 two months later.
- Sell H2-B with J5005 at $149 two months later.
Personally I'm fine with the J5005 board at $149 given that anyway I'll add 32Gb of memory, disks, an NVMe or card(s), other accessories, case. At the end the extra $38 get lost in the overall cost.

But then again you want to make sure Intel is not going to do with PS J5005 what it is doing with C J4105. It looks like Intel is much more concerned about the war on the middle and high desktop as well as server with AMD seriously ruffling their feathers with the 3000 series and the upcoming Rome.

Meanwhile Intel is doing the U and Y core series so that Dell, HP and so on can sell their crappy mini-desktops with not so good performances. Even the Dell, ASUS and Gigabyte based on the J4105 are crap compared to the Odroid H2. The board maker for the J4105-based Dell and Gigabyte minis is the same no name board maker. At least the Gigabyte lets you run 32GB of memory, but the NVMe is x2 only. On Dell, it's even worse: 8MB of memory soldered to the board and that's it!

powerful owl
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:57 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: 6 x HC1, 3 x H2
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 9 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by powerful owl » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:04 pm

odroid wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:36 am
- Wait several months (until we can buy J4105 again).
I can't help thinking that's the best solution... How much will your bottom line be affected by doing so? (vs N4100/J5005) There will be pent up demand and when it's available you'll sell a truckload again.

aw_
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2019 2:50 am
languages_spoken: english
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by aw_ » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:24 pm

PigLover wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:26 am
Can you confirm that the N4100 will also support 32gb ram? I know that the ‘J’ series processors have always supported more than Intel claims on Ark but it’s not clear that is true on the ‘N’ series parts.
Just as a data point, 32GB of RAM was a key factor in my recent H2 buying decision. IF the N-series processor changes that, the economics of $5 cheaper vs $45 more expensive are much bigger than the minor performance difference.

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 32677
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 364 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by odroid » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:29 pm

aw_ wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:24 pm
PigLover wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:26 am
Can you confirm that the N4100 will also support 32gb ram? I know that the ‘J’ series processors have always supported more than Intel claims on Ark but it’s not clear that is true on the ‘N’ series parts.
Just as a data point, 32GB of RAM was a key factor in my recent H2 buying decision. IF the N-series processor changes that, the economics of $5 cheaper vs $45 more expensive are much bigger than the minor performance difference.
I can confirm it.
2pcs of 16GB(total 32GB) works fine with an H2 sample which has the N4100 SoC.

User avatar
mad_ady
Posts: 6860
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:00 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: XU4, C1+, C2, N1, H2, N2
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Has thanked: 236 times
Been thanked: 177 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by mad_ady » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:03 pm

The risk to Hardkernel is to have a 4100 stock that is not completely sold by the time the 4105 is available again. Then users will prefer 4105 even if it's slightly more expensive. The 45$ difference between A and B is big, so I think there will be users happy to go with the cheaper option.

crashoverride
Posts: 4551
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:42 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C1
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 79 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by crashoverride » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:07 pm

My *opinion* is to launch a "H2 Pro" with J5005. Since the CPU is not end-user replaceable, it makes the most sense to large purchasers to get the "maxed out" version of a product. Nobody ever complains about having more performance. Also, since most large purchases are based on spec sheet comparisons, the N4100 is far less attractive despite its 'high TDP' configuration in a H2.

It may also be possible to do both! A "H2 Lite" and "H2 Pro" using N4100 and J5005 respectively. After a production run of each, it should be easy to gauge market interest. Of course, its easy for me to say since its not my money being spent on it. ;)

TL;DR = I want J5005 cuz its the fastest this board will ever be.

User avatar
mad_ady
Posts: 6860
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:00 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: XU4, C1+, C2, N1, H2, N2
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Has thanked: 236 times
Been thanked: 177 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by mad_ady » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:26 pm

Before investing in 5005 it is wise to do your market research, see what other similar boards are out there, what prices/configurations.
These users thanked the author mad_ady for the post:
domih (Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:26 am)

crashoverride
Posts: 4551
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:42 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C1
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 79 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by crashoverride » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:39 pm

mad_ady wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:26 pm
Before investing in 5005 it is wise to do your market research
Where is the fun in that?!? Lets just go ahead and order 100K pcs of each and put it on @mad_ady 's credit card.
These users thanked the author crashoverride for the post (total 2):
odroid (Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:44 pm) • domih (Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:26 am)

User avatar
mad_ady
Posts: 6860
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:00 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: XU4, C1+, C2, N1, H2, N2
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Has thanked: 236 times
Been thanked: 177 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by mad_ady » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:24 pm

Joke's on you! I don't have a credit card

fvolk
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:04 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C2, HC1, H2
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 11 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by fvolk » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:01 pm

I would probably vote against +45$ for a stronger CPU as with that price level there are then other options.
That said, I'm still setting up my H2 cluster and so have not yet a good measurement on the price/perf level of the H2.

Going lower in performance, I had a box with the Apollo Lake generation and sold it because it was too weak, the Gemini Lake generation is the first one with enough power for me. However, the current H2 CPU is thermally limited with only passive cooling. If my clustering turns out well I was thinking to slightly decrease the max speed so the CPU does now run against the limit and throttle so often. Putting a weaker CPU in the H2, would that then achieve the same? So a passive cooled H2 that no longer throttles? ...

(what I really REALLY wanted this week was to just attach a disk from another machine that spontaneously died and a H2 - even being ~3 times slower than a regular PC - would have been a perfect temporary replacement, but unfortunately the H2 misses BIOS/CSM boot and AVX(2) support, so the H2 needs a custom software image and just attach disk&done as with a normal PC does not work :-( ... something Zen-based really appears to be the future?)

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 32677
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 364 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by odroid » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:04 pm

There is another thread about the H3 (or Ryzen).
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=35941

crashoverride
Posts: 4551
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:42 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C1
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 79 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by crashoverride » Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:13 pm

fvolk wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:01 pm
I would probably vote against +45$ for a stronger CPU as with that price level there are then other options.
In the interest of completeness, you should probably state what those other options are.

I have been looking for a J5005 board since the H2 was released. They are non-existent in the USA: Gigabyte Brix GB-BLPD-5005, Intel NUC NUC7PJYH, and Asrock J5005-ITX for example. Only complete, pre-built systems are available here (which do not interest me).

As a 3rd option, how about HK makes a couple of "H2 Pro" J5005 boards just for me! :lol:

fvolk
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:04 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C2, HC1, H2
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 11 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by fvolk » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:14 pm

crashoverride wrote: In the interest of completeness, you should probably state what those other options are.
Of course depends on your specific needs. ARMs are out for me due to software.
For example, I already posted about the "higher end" in the form of DeskMinis here, all the extras sold separately for the H2 drive up the total price:
viewtopic.php?f=168&t=33647#p248429 and viewtopic.php?f=168&t=33647#p246342
If the H2 gets significantly more expensive I rather buy more DeskMinis instead, they are "batteries included", just go. When the A300 came out recently the old Intel-based 110 models were already sold used for cheap.

crashoverride
Posts: 4551
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:42 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C1
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 79 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by crashoverride » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:41 pm

I completely forgot there is also a N5000 to compliment the N4100:
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... 0-ghz.html

Maybe it can help close the price gap while still offering an upgrade over J4105

powerful owl
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:57 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: 6 x HC1, 3 x H2
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 9 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by powerful owl » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:57 am

crashoverride wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:13 pm
fvolk wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:01 pm
I would probably vote against +45$ for a stronger CPU as with that price level there are then other options.
In the interest of completeness, you should probably state what those other options are.
To add another perspective, a $150 H2, by the time you add case, PSU and shipping, is only eight 200g slabs of butter shy of a NUC8i3 (street/discount price), which is 40% faster than the J5005.
These users thanked the author powerful owl for the post:
dkking (Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:54 am)

soerenderfor
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:01 pm
languages_spoken: Danish, English
ODROIDs: ODROID U3, ODROID C2, ODROID XU4, ODROID N2, ODROID H2.
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by soerenderfor » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:07 am

RomaT wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:39 am
Better 2.4 kg of butter than RPi8z++
Yeah, the butter is absolutly best i agree. It was just to make an example :D

crashoverride
Posts: 4551
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:42 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C1
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 79 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by crashoverride » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:39 am

fvolk wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:14 pm
the A300
Deskmini A300 + Athlon 200GE = $150 + $63 = $213
powerful owl wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:57 am
a NUC8i3
BOXNUC8i3BEH1 = $314

Both are only 2 core versus the 4 real cores in H2. Pricing comes from newegg and is applicable to the USA. Not intended to be a debate about who can build the cheapest system, rather to show that a J5005 based H2 is still competitive in my region.
These users thanked the author crashoverride for the post:
domih (Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:40 am)

domih
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:48 pm
languages_spoken: English, French
ODROIDs: UX4, HC2, N2, H2.
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 35 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by domih » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:35 am

mad_ady wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:26 pm
Before investing in 5005 it is wise to do your market research, see what other similar boards are out there, what prices/configurations.
Good question, and the answer is the same as for the J4105.

We get the same usual culprits: Dell, HP, ASRock, Gigabytes and 2nd level OEM (Beelink and no name). Same crap with limitations you do not have on the H2.

I bought a Gigabyte Brix with the J4105 while waiting for the H2 to see what kind of power you get with a J4105. Gigabyte is not entirely brain damaged because it has two SO-DIMM slots like the H2, so for memory you can use 8, 16, 32GB in dual channel. It also has an NVMe... HOWEVER:

Code: Select all

domih@brix-a:~$ lspci
.../...
01:00.0 Non-Volatile memory controller: Micron/Crucial Technology Device 2263 (rev 03)
.../...
domih@brix-a:~$ sudo lspci -vvv -s 01:00.0 | grep -e LnkCap:
		LnkCap:	Port #0, Speed 8GT/s, Width x4, ASPM L1, Exit Latency L0s <1us, L1 <8us
.../...
domih@brix-a:~$ sudo lspci -vvv -s 01:00.0 | grep -e LnkSta:
		LnkSta:	Speed 5GT/s, Width x2, TrErr- Train- SlotClk+ DLActive- BWMgmt- ABWMg
So, WHAT YOU CAN DO WITH AN H2, YOU CAN'T with the Gigabyte Brix:
- You can only adapt to PCIe x2, not PCI x4. Gigabyte privileged 3 x USB 3 and 1 x USB-C at the expense of the rest. It also includes a Wifi AC (Intel). At the time I made the pricing comparison Gigabyte vs. H2+accessories to match what the Gigabyte provides, the difference was $2 in favor of Gigabyte (last but not least, it was with ALL the pieces as priced from AmeriDroid, you can save a significant amount on memory and SSD bought elsewhere, then the H2 price is well below the Gigabyte)
With the Gigabyte you get what you buy and that's it, not much room for "sane" customization and expansion.
- The H2 has two SATA ports, the Gigabyte does not.
- The H2 has GPIOs, the Gigabyte does not.
- The H2 has 2 x 1Gbe, the Gigabyte has only one. No matter how you turn the thing around, I definitely prefer to have my hard disks and SSD on SATA rather than through USB 3. Adding wireless AC to the H2 is a non-issue via USB 3. You can't build a router with the Gigabyte unless you start plugging-in 1 Gbe dongles into USB 3. Personally I prefer to get the 1 Gbe from the board. Building a NAS with the Gigabyte means that your storage go through USB 3 (that a show stopper for me.)

The Gigabyte, for the price, is a pretty good mini-desktop (email, browsing, Office, HTPC). But the H2 can fill that role PLUS let you expand on capabilities you find in embedded systems to build something you CANNOT get with the main stream ITX boards. As explained earlier the situation is even worse with the various Dell Wyse models, the memory is soldered to the board, no means to extend it and the prices are stratospheric. For the ITX ASRock boards, there is always something missing compared to the H2, they may have 4 SATA but not NVMe M Key, no access to PCIe lanes. The ASRock DeskMini are nice too, BUT then again, no access to the PCIe lanes. All these main stream ITX, mini, etc boxes are for regular uses who will mostly never open the box. Unpack, connect and use it (no concerns about what's inside the box). They are made for desktop or HTPC usage, not for router, NAS or other server usage.

As far as I'm concerned Hard Kernel is in the embedded business, it just happened that the H2 (and in a certain extent the N2) also overlaps as mini-desktop. I really care about these 4 PCIe lanes.

domih
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:48 pm
languages_spoken: English, French
ODROIDs: UX4, HC2, N2, H2.
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 35 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by domih » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:45 am

Ultimately, I believe (and understand) that Hard Kernel does NOT want to design a new H2 board for now, so that leaves with the N4100 and the J5005.

N4100? Niet! No! No! Non!
J5005? Da! Si! Yes! Oui!

domih
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:48 pm
languages_spoken: English, French
ODROIDs: UX4, HC2, N2, H2.
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 35 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by domih » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:50 am

crashoverride wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:41 pm
I completely forgot there is also a N5000 to compliment the N4100:
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... 0-ghz.html

Maybe it can help close the price gap while still offering an upgrade over J4105
See https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en ... 983,128989.

The J4105 and J5005 are desktop CPUs at 10w. The N4100 and N5000 are mobile CPUs at 6W. The latter will not perform as well as the J4105 and J5005, they will constantly try to throttle down to save energy. Base frequency 1.1GHz vs 1.5GHz. N5000 < J5005 in CPU and GPU power.

domih
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:48 pm
languages_spoken: English, French
ODROIDs: UX4, HC2, N2, H2.
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 35 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by domih » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:00 am

crashoverride wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:39 am
fvolk wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:14 pm
the A300
Deskmini A300 + Athlon 200GE = $150 + $63 = $213
powerful owl wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:57 am
a NUC8i3
BOXNUC8i3BEH1 = $314

Both are only 2 core versus the 4 real cores in H2. Pricing comes from newegg and is applicable to the USA. Not intended to be a debate about who can build the cheapest system, rather to show that a J5005 based H2 is still competitive in my region.
Plus 28W instead of 10W TDP. Also all the Intel U and Y are for mobile (in theory), they do not behave like their desktop cousins.

The Athlon 200GE is also a 2C/4T and its TDP is 35W.

Finally with these, if you want to build a router or a NAS you'll end up plugging your things in USB 3 ports. If that's only for desktop or HTPC only, you'll save money going with the Gigabyte Brix.
Last edited by domih on Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 32677
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 364 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by odroid » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:01 am

domih wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:50 am
The J4105 and J5005 are desktop CPUs at 10w. The N4100 and N5000 are mobile CPUs at 6W. The latter will not perform as well as the J4105 and J5005, they will constantly try to throttle down to save energy. Base frequency 1.1GHz vs 1.5GHz. N5000 < J5005 in CPU and GPU power.
Nope! We could tweak the BIOS to change the TDP to 10Watt even with the N series. So there was no TDP throttling when we tested N4100 on a H2 board.

The base frequency is not a factor either.
My H2 J4105 DVFS clock range is 0.8Ghz~2.5Ghz and N4100 is 0.8Ghz~2.4Ghz.

Code: Select all

odroid@h2:~$ cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_min_freq 
800000
odroid@h2:~$ cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_max_freq 
2500000
When I played some heavy Wii games with Dolphin emulator, all the four cores were running at 2.4Ghz on the both J4105 and N4100 as expected.

domih
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:48 pm
languages_spoken: English, French
ODROIDs: UX4, HC2, N2, H2.
Has thanked: 42 times
Been thanked: 35 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by domih » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:11 am

OK, so if you use the BIOS to boost the N4100, that's fine.

User avatar
venkatbo
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:10 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C0/C1+/C2; U3+; XU3-Lite/XU4; H2; VU/VU7+; Touchscreen Show TFT Cloudshell SmartPower mAHRS DAC GPS Multiscope Ocam
Location: Bay Area, California
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: J4105 vs N4100

Unread post by venkatbo » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:32 am

If N4100 looks equivalent, and if you could drop-replace the Realtek NIC with an Intel NIC keeping the total same at $111, may be it will become more acceptable in the IoT/edge router realm...

Post Reply

Return to “General Topics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests