Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

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Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by easybob95 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:45 pm

Hello Odroid,

N2 gets good hardware, it's clear. It also gets Mali G52 GPU. Great. But what about software support ?

You know, some of the N2 owners expect more than just watching a 4K movie with Odroid N2. Some are doing things like programming software which would need very high CPU AND GPU capabilities.

I am not really aware with linux image building and i don't plan to be aware about that.

I read some things about new linux images here but to be honest, i don't understand a single word. That is to say i don't know if one day, i will get a fully functional Odroid N2 and i don't know if i will be able to do want i want to do with it. It's a bit boring.

My project needs opencv with GPU optimization (opencl). With Odroid N2, i don't know if i will get such capabilities one day.

To support my project, i asked Nvidia to give me a Jetson Nano and they will. Tegra X1 is less powerful than S992X BUT Nvidia GPU supports :
- CUDA
- opencv with GPU capabilities
- PyCUDA

So, i know what i will be able to do with Jetson Nano and Nvidia support gives us some answers to our questions. Quite useful no ?

Odroid can just say ... quite nothing about future hardware support. Odroid just say "later, we work to bring something, one day, maybe, it's complicated, others are working on it, try to find something on the internet ... and so on.

If Odroid wants to be trustable with there products, i should suggest to :
- try to get a clear and understandable communication about your real products capabilities (don't forget we are not all linux system engineers !!!!)
- give us a real planning about software improvements and possibility to use GPU capabilities
- stop to say that "perhaps someone else can give the answer to a question" ; this is not serious at all

Odroid N2 is a very good SBC but the support you bring to your customers is very very bad. You should react quickly and seriously.

Many thanks in advance.

Alain

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by powerful owl » Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:07 pm

Well I think this is a bit unfair. For one thing, you have on one hand a general purpose board vs one specifically designed for your type of application. For another, these are generally considered development boards, so you know, complaining that "we are not all linux system engineers" is sort of valid but also not really because the intent is for people who want to "get their hands dirty" or learn something about being a linux systems engineer (or Android).

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by easybob95 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:02 am

Yes and No.

No need to buy a SBC to learn Linux. An old laptop will do the job perfectly.

Some want to play with linux, others want to use linux environment to write software.

If Odroid said that N2 is just for trying to compile linux images without errors in order to try get get hardware work and that's all, ok, i would have never buy a Odroid N2.

If Mali GPU does not support X11 any more and if we can't get GPU acceleration, why choosing a Mali G52 GPU ?

Odroid make good SBC, ok. But if there is no software support to use this hardware, Odroid will remane a small SBC maker until ... they die. They are not alone and a lot of companies make SBC (and quite good SBC).

I really think Odroid must urgently work very hard on software support. For example, the GPIO support under Python is very near from zero. If GPIO is not important for Odroid, why do they provide GPIO ?

If i compare N2 to Jetson Nano, they are not very far each other BUT Jetson Nano gets a real software environment and support.

I don't understand Odroid logic. Bringing good hardware but no serious way to use it. ????

I don't care compiling linux images. This is useless for many people. Most people want a good SBC to make things with it, not to compile linux images. We have to be serious.

SO, i ask Odroid to change very quickly the way they communicate to give us (the customers) very precise informations about Odroid N2 software and support.

Many thanks in advance.

Alain
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superpowter77 (Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:42 am)

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by powerful owl » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:16 am

Well, now you are twisting my comment too.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by easybob95 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:26 am

Sorry for my misunderstanding.

What did i missed? I am not native English speaker so i must have understand in the wrong way.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by everlasting » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:23 am

When I was buying the N2, I noticed their product page said that linux and android was missing some GPU stuff and it would take "a few months". I hope that is their priority. I dont know much about SBCs, but now that the Raspberry Pi 4 is out, I wonder if Odroid can afford not speeding up their software development.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by blu » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:34 am

easybob95 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:45 pm
My project needs opencv with GPU optimization (opencl). With Odroid N2, i don't know if i will get such capabilities one day.
There's a fully functional OCL2.0 for Mali in the default image I downloaded at around launch. I doubt it would be gone as of now.

[edit] I've managed to dig up some OCL caps from my logs:

Code: Select all

blu@odroid:~/proj/test-cl$ ./test_cl 
platform 0:                                                    0x62c890
    CL_PLATFORM_PROFILE:                                       FULL_PROFILE
    CL_PLATFORM_VERSION:                                       OpenCL 2.0 git.c8adbf9.122c9daed32dbba4b3056f41a2f23c58
    CL_PLATFORM_NAME:                                          ARM Platform
    CL_PLATFORM_VENDOR:                                        ARM
    CL_PLATFORM_EXTENSIONS:                                    cl_khr_global_int32_base_atomics cl_khr_global_int32_extended_atomics cl_khr_local_int32_base_atomics cl_khr_local_int32_extended_atomics cl_khr_byte_addressable_store cl_khr_3d_image_writes cl_khr_int64_base_atomics cl_khr_int64_extended_atomics cl_khr_fp16 cl_khr_icd cl_khr_egl_image cl_khr_image2d_from_buffer cl_khr_depth_images cl_khr_subgroups cl_khr_create_command_queue cl_arm_core_id cl_arm_printf cl_arm_thread_limit_hint cl_arm_non_uniform_work_group_size cl_arm_import_memory cl_arm_shared_virtual_memory
    device 0:                                                  0x625cc0
        CL_DEVICE_TYPE:                                        CL_DEVICE_TYPE_GPU
        CL_DEVICE_VENDOR_ID:                                   1913782272
        CL_DEVICE_MAX_COMPUTE_UNITS:                           2
        CL_DEVICE_MAX_WORK_ITEM_DIMENSIONS:                    3
        CL_DEVICE_MAX_WORK_GROUP_SIZE:                         384
        CL_DEVICE_MAX_WORK_ITEM_SIZES:                         384 384 384
        CL_DEVICE_PREFERRED_VECTOR_WIDTH_CHAR:                 16
        CL_DEVICE_PREFERRED_VECTOR_WIDTH_SHORT:                8
        CL_DEVICE_PREFERRED_VECTOR_WIDTH_INT:                  4
        CL_DEVICE_PREFERRED_VECTOR_WIDTH_LONG:                 2
        CL_DEVICE_PREFERRED_VECTOR_WIDTH_FLOAT:                4
        CL_DEVICE_PREFERRED_VECTOR_WIDTH_DOUBLE:               0
        CL_DEVICE_MAX_CLOCK_FREQUENCY:                         750
        CL_DEVICE_ADDRESS_BITS:                                64
        CL_DEVICE_MAX_READ_IMAGE_ARGS:                         128
        CL_DEVICE_MAX_WRITE_IMAGE_ARGS:                        64
        CL_DEVICE_MAX_MEM_ALLOC_SIZE:                          971913216
        CL_DEVICE_IMAGE2D_MAX_WIDTH:                           65536
        CL_DEVICE_IMAGE2D_MAX_HEIGHT:                          65536
        CL_DEVICE_IMAGE3D_MAX_WIDTH:                           65536
        CL_DEVICE_IMAGE3D_MAX_HEIGHT:                          65536
        CL_DEVICE_IMAGE3D_MAX_DEPTH:                           65536
        CL_DEVICE_IMAGE_SUPPORT:                               true
        CL_DEVICE_MAX_PARAMETER_SIZE:                          1024
        CL_DEVICE_MAX_SAMPLERS:                                16
        CL_DEVICE_MEM_BASE_ADDR_ALIGN:                         1024
        CL_DEVICE_MIN_DATA_TYPE_ALIGN_SIZE:                    128
        CL_DEVICE_SINGLE_FP_CONFIG:                            CL_FP_DENORM CL_FP_INF_NAN CL_FP_ROUND_TO_NEAREST CL_FP_ROUND_TO_ZERO CL_FP_ROUND_TO_INF CL_FP_FMA
        CL_DEVICE_GLOBAL_MEM_CACHE_TYPE:                       CL_READ_WRITE_CACHE
        CL_DEVICE_GLOBAL_MEM_CACHELINE_SIZE:                   64
        CL_DEVICE_GLOBAL_MEM_CACHE_SIZE:                       131072
        CL_DEVICE_GLOBAL_MEM_SIZE:                             3887652864
        CL_DEVICE_MAX_CONSTANT_BUFFER_SIZE:                    65536
        CL_DEVICE_MAX_CONSTANT_ARGS:                           8
        CL_DEVICE_LOCAL_MEM_TYPE:                              CL_GLOBAL
        CL_DEVICE_LOCAL_MEM_SIZE:                              32768
        CL_DEVICE_ERROR_CORRECTION_SUPPORT:                    false
        CL_DEVICE_PROFILING_TIMER_RESOLUTION:                  1000
        CL_DEVICE_ENDIAN_LITTLE:                               true
        CL_DEVICE_AVAILABLE:                                   true
        CL_DEVICE_COMPILER_AVAILABLE:                          true
        CL_DEVICE_EXECUTION_CAPABILITIES:                      CL_EXEC_KERNEL
        CL_DEVICE_QUEUE_PROPERTIES:                            CL_QUEUE_OUT_OF_ORDER_EXEC_MODE_ENABLE CL_QUEUE_PROFILING_ENABLE
        CL_DEVICE_NAME:                                        Mali-G52
        CL_DEVICE_VENDOR:                                      ARM
        CL_DRIVER_VERSION:                                     2.0
        CL_DEVICE_PROFILE:                                     FULL_PROFILE
        CL_DEVICE_VERSION:                                     OpenCL 2.0 git.c8adbf9.122c9daed32dbba4b3056f41a2f23c58
        CL_DEVICE_EXTENSIONS:                                  cl_khr_global_int32_base_atomics cl_khr_global_int32_extended_atomics cl_khr_local_int32_base_atomics cl_khr_local_int32_extended_atomics cl_khr_byte_addressable_store cl_khr_3d_image_writes cl_khr_int64_base_atomics cl_khr_int64_extended_atomics cl_khr_fp16 cl_khr_icd cl_khr_egl_image cl_khr_image2d_from_buffer cl_khr_depth_images cl_khr_subgroups cl_khr_create_command_queue cl_arm_core_id cl_arm_printf cl_arm_thread_limit_hint cl_arm_non_uniform_work_group_size cl_arm_import_memory cl_arm_shared_virtual_memory
        CL_DEVICE_PLATFORM:                                    0x62c890
        CL_DEVICE_PREFERRED_VECTOR_WIDTH_HALF:                 8
        CL_DEVICE_HOST_UNIFIED_MEMORY:                         true
        CL_DEVICE_NATIVE_VECTOR_WIDTH_CHAR:                    4
        CL_DEVICE_NATIVE_VECTOR_WIDTH_SHORT:                   2
        CL_DEVICE_NATIVE_VECTOR_WIDTH_INT:                     1
        CL_DEVICE_NATIVE_VECTOR_WIDTH_LONG:                    1
        CL_DEVICE_NATIVE_VECTOR_WIDTH_FLOAT:                   1
        CL_DEVICE_NATIVE_VECTOR_WIDTH_DOUBLE:                  0
        CL_DEVICE_NATIVE_VECTOR_WIDTH_HALF:                    2
        CL_DEVICE_OPENCL_C_VERSION:                            OpenCL C 2.0 git.c8adbf9.122c9daed32dbba4b3056f41a2f23c58
        CL_DEVICE_DOUBLE_FP_CONFIG:                            none
        CL_DEVICE_LINKER_AVAILABLE:                            true
        CL_DEVICE_BUILT_IN_KERNELS:                            empty
        CL_DEVICE_IMAGE_MAX_BUFFER_SIZE:                       65536
        CL_DEVICE_IMAGE_MAX_ARRAY_SIZE:                        2048
        CL_DEVICE_PARENT_DEVICE:                               0
        CL_DEVICE_PARTITION_MAX_SUB_DEVICES:                   0
        CL_DEVICE_PARTITION_PROPERTIES:                        none
        CL_DEVICE_PARTITION_AFFINITY_DOMAIN:                   none
        CL_DEVICE_PARTITION_TYPE:                              n/a
        CL_DEVICE_REFERENCE_COUNT:                             1
        CL_DEVICE_PREFERRED_INTEROP_USER_SYNC:                 false
        CL_DEVICE_PRINTF_BUFFER_SIZE:                          1048576
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easybob95 (Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:01 am)

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by bigbrovar » Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:34 pm

I can not agree more with this post. I am a Linux user for over 12 years and a system admin to boot so compiling is not the issue. But I am getting an sbc to work with. It is important for hard kernel to come out with a clear message on their position on fixing some of the issues with GPU on the n2 and what effort is being made at fixing it.
Not all who wander are lost

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by odroid » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:33 pm

As other users reported the Mali G52 GPU accelerated OpenCL 2.0 driver works fine and they have used the OpenCL driver for their application.
For example : viewtopic.php?t=34020#p247753

But I have no idea how to modify the OpenCV stuff to work with OpenCL since we have near zero experience of the OpenCV programming.
Is there any standard API or Middle-ware in the OpenCV framework to utilize the OpenCL acceleration?
Is this ARM's Compute-Library is compatible with OpenCV?
https://github.com/ARM-software/ComputeLibrary

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by easybob95 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:23 am

Hello,

i guess opencv must be compiled with good parameters, including the working opencl library. I suppose opencl for Arm is a generic opencl for Arm. What we need is a G52 specific opencl (i suppose).

You see, your answer is exactly what makes me regretting my Odroid N2 choice.

I know nothing about how to compile a library with good parameters and good links to specific libraries (i mean libraries for Mali G52). I only know how to use some specific libraries in my programs.

I am very pessimistic reading your answer. I think we will never get the good libraries to be able to use the full potential of the Odroid N2 for our personal software. Hopefully, the CPU can brings us some interesting performances but to be honest, i expected more.

Butmy question wasn't only concerning opencv with opencl. Do you (Odroid) plan to try to communicate on new linux images (with 5.x kernel, GPU acceleration) with planning, understandable informations, etc. ?

I insist : if you only provide hardware, people will look other products. Many people are involved in Do It Yourself (i don't talk about linux image compiling of course) and there is not geat interest to buy a N2 to watch 4K films on TV.

We really need software support for AI, image and video treatments, sensors and motors control through GPIO, etc.

On youtube, compare the videos concerning Odroid N2 and Jetson Nano, RPi 3.
- Odroid N2 : gaming emulators video. This is ridiculous.
- Jetson Nano : image and video treatments, AI, objects recognition.
- RPi : robotics, sensor control, etc.

You should consider to bring us something more serious.

Of course, if you think your products are only dedicated to game emulation, i must admit a made the wrong choice and i will sell my Odroid N2 to a 10 years old in his mind old guy.

Alain

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by blu » Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:32 am

easybob95 wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:23 am
i guess opencv must be compiled with good parameters, including the working opencl library. I suppose opencl for Arm is a generic opencl for Arm. What we need is a G52 specific opencl (i suppose).
As seen in the logs the OCL that ships with the launch N2 image is G52 *only*. If you want CPU-based OCL you will need to compile something like PoCL.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by noonespecial » Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:15 am

I have 3 comments.
1. This is the first board I have even seen with s922x or mali g52. Its new hardware and with its release it takes time to sort out issues.
2. Odroid boards HAVE ALWAYS been advertised as development boards and not marketed to typical end users. However, the software usually ends up being very user friendly for everyone over time, and I have seen odroid admins specifically advise anyone who is not a developer to buy something else.
3. Some issues related to firmware are the fault of Amlogic, some things do not work yet because the chip manufacturers themselves have not released adequate drivers. Also, no 64 bit android yet because of Google.

I think you should go with a Jetson Nano for your project because it is more appropriate for your needs. I have never felt like Odroid was competing with anyone for business, instead they design these boards and sell them to those who are interested. Its Demand based, not Supply and marketing based. This is not your grandma's raspberry pi.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by wallyz21 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:28 pm

What doesn't make any sense are two things (one thing):
  • 1 - Arm dropping support for the GPU on X11/Linux (selling half a chip)
  • 2 - Any vendor then wanting to license that product knowing they are only buying a half a chip
To me, personally, selling and buying half a product has never made much sense!

However for the casual SBC user market I think the Raspberry is probably the safer choice and for the professional ARM market the Nvidia is the better choice.

What's left of the other markets are shared by the other Arm SBC makers.

I think the days of the PI killer are now gone with the introduction of the PI 4B.

As stated by others in this forum. The N2 is better suited to those who are prepared to tinker. I for one am happy with my N2. It clearly out performs a PI 3B+.

If I wanted to do some serious stuff with AI or GPU I would consider the Jetson.

Just my opinion.
Last edited by wallyz21 on Mon Jul 01, 2019 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by meveric » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:36 pm

wallyz21 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:28 pm
What doesn't make any sense are two things (one thing):
  • 1 - Arm dropping support for the GPU on X11/Linux (selling half a chip)
  • 2 - Any vendor then wanting to license that product knowing they are only buying a half a chip
I agree, dropping X11 driver support was a shitty move from ARM.
I understand they don't care about Linux Desktop and for them it's simply reducing workload, but "pretending" there's something new called "GBM" as a replacement, when GBM is only half implemented as well, and besides that, the ONLY thing GBM is running on for a Desktop is Wayland, which by itself is still in development, is just plainly fucking customers over telling them to go Android if they want a halfway working system.
But then again, Kodi project does exactly the same which is also a bullshit move.. telling people with OpenGL ES boards to use "GBM" when 90% of the boards don't even have GBM drivers.
wallyz21 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:28 pm
I think the days of the PI killer are now gone with the introduction of the PI 4B.

Just my opinion.
I have to agree with that as well, the Pi 4 is a interesting board, and although the current driver situation is bad for Pi4 as well, this will change over time and aside from GPU capabilities, the Pi4 will be a worthy competitor on the SBC market and there are less reasons to go to another manufacture now than ever before.
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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by BadPritt » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:37 am

I say you've got to use the right tool for the job.
And also do your research well before buying anything. Be sure your application works on it.
I needed raw CPU power. And I've gotten it with the N2.
The raspberry pi can't give that.
I also would like a Raspberry Pi4B. I don't really need it, I've got more than enough boards that are better. (NanoPi M4 on top)

But the RPi4 can't do the job of my C2(laptop) or the one of my N2(rendermachine). The C2 is very powerful while very power efficient. And that's what I use it for. The RPi4B can't do the same performance per watt.
For most people the RPi4B can be enough. Not for me.
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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by easybob95 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:31 pm

Saying Odroid N2 is a development board is quite strange. Odroid makes development boards, why not. But i don't understand what really is a development board. Does it mean the board will work half the way it should do and customers have to work on hardware and software to male it work properly ? This have no sense, really.

Anyway, there is no response from Odroid. 2 possibilities :
- they don't know what to respond
- they just have to wait for this topic going far away and be forgotten.

Now, i am sure Odroid N2 is a bad choice for people who want to make some real work with it. The software support is crappy. Fortunately, i can use the N2 for my purpose but i can't get as far as i expected because of the bad software support. Maybe in 1 or 2 years ?

I will get more fun with Nvidia Jetson Nano.

At the end, i am always surprised with people who says its quite normal to be unable to use the full power of the N2. Really strange. If you want, i have a very old desktop PC which is dead. I can sell it to you for 700$. Just contact me with PM.

Alain
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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by igorpec » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:00 am

easybob95 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:31 pm
I will get more fun with Nvidia Jetson Nano.
Interesting to hear about your experiences. I only tried to build an image on my own and stopped due to poor/over complicated SDK and overall low support state.
ARMBIAN - follow on Twitter
linux for ARM development boards with user friendly development tools

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by easybob95 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:35 am

I won't use Jetson Nano to build images. This is not my purpose. Sorry.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by rooted » Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:36 am


easybob95 wrote: At the end, i am always surprised with people who says its quite normal to be unable to use the full power of the N2. Really strange. If you want, i have a very old desktop PC which is dead. I can sell it to you for 700$. Just contact me with PM.

Alain
I think you need to research the Pi 4 and it's current state a little more, it is no different. There is no hardware acceleration in X among other issues that will take time to resolve. It can't even play a 360p YouTube video (non-fullscreen much less fullscreen) without dropping tons of frames.

https://youtu.be/eVqz8qBJSZ0

New hardware almost never comes with mature software, if you want mature software you need something like an Nvidia Shield TV but the problem is the mature software is Android.

Who doesn't want the N2 to have the ability to take full advantage of the hardware in software? The thing is it takes time, if you can't wait you should either sell the N2 and get something else or wait. Complaining will get you nowhere, we all need to vent and I understand your concerns but they are unrealistic expectations.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by easybob95 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:31 am

I have a question : do you think it is still possible today to complain when you are not satisfied with something or do we have to say "everything is ok" even if it's wrong ?

I must be too old but some years ago, when a customer wanted to complain, it was "normal". Today, companies sell you beta version of a product and everyone seems to think it's normal.

I must be abnormal.

Bye.

Alain

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by meveric » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:04 am

easybob95 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:31 am
I have a question : do you think it is still possible today to complain when you are not satisfied with something or do we have to say "everything is ok" even if it's wrong ?

I must be too old but some years ago, when a customer wanted to complain, it was "normal". Today, companies sell you beta version of a product and everyone seems to think it's normal.
That's the difference between a $60 DEVELOPMENT BOARD... and $300 END CUSTOMER product.
Which is what people were trying to bring over to you I think.
The reason why you get these board "cheap as f*ck" is that there's not 10 years of development in it with matured software that will most of the time limit you in the things you can do, but also do the things it can do in a "near perfect" manner.

Vendors provide you with hardware, hardware that is brand new, very capable, and extremely cheap. SO NEW in fact, that sometimes not even the drivers for the hardware (or other software) exist yet.
But in return the support is limited, and "grows" over time (or in some cases, might never happen at all) and most people have come to except this trade off, that they are the first to adapt new things, the first that get their hands on new hardware, learn how to work with it, find workarounds for issues that come up, have to wait, or get their hands dirty to get things working, but in return don't have to wait 2,5,10 years until the hardware is ready for end customers for a high price to get things one would "expect" of such a device.
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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by igorpec » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:44 am

easybob95 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:35 am
I won't use Jetson Nano to build images. This is not my purpose. Sorry.

Alain
Me neither. SDK tells a lot about the state of software maturity if you are able to "listen". If it is not possible or it is very difficult to build a Linux image from sources, than I will not even think to use it. If you make your choices based on what marketing department is telling you, too bad for you.

I would like to implement Jetson nano into our SDK, which is significantly better - (saves you a lot of money) than what Nvidia throws at you (for "free"). If this job is too expensive, we will just skip adding value.
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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by rooted » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:58 am

easybob95 wrote:I have a question : do you think it is still possible today to complain when you are not satisfied with something or do we have to say "everything is ok" even if it's wrong ?

I must be too old but some years ago, when a customer wanted to complain, it was "normal". Today, companies sell you beta version of a product and everyone seems to think it's normal.

I must be abnormal.

Bye.

Alain
You are perfectly normal and I said everyone needs to vent or voice their concerns. You are free to post what you like, and as a response I'm free to post my thoughts.

You can expect whatever you want as well, it's just what you expect is unrealistic of new hardware.
Last edited by rooted on Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by crashoverride » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:57 am

To add some clarity to the OP:

CUDA is an NVIDIA API. It is only supported on NVIDIA GPUs. It does not work on Intel, AMD, or ARM GPUs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CUDA

OpenCV is an Intel API. It may or may not work elsewhere. When it does work elsewhere, it may or may not have limited capabilities and/or slow performance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCV

OpenCL is a vendor neutral API. It is currently supported on Mali GPUs and CPUs by ARM.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL

For best results, use Android and its supported APIs.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by easybob95 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:23 pm

Ok, i give up. You win, Odroid is the best.

But the truth is :
- Odroid sells half N2 (can't really use GPU and GPIO ; GPIO software support is just a joke)
- Odroid can't bring serious linux support

To be honest, i must also say that Odroid made terrific N2 board with great CPU. It is much better than RPi 4 (much better thermal management; RPi will have big problems with heat i think) except for WIFI and GPIO. RPi will take the lead because of the software support but N2 CPU capabilities are much better.

Jetson Nano will be very interesting to use because of the software support, Cuda, PyCuda, PyOpenCL, OpenCV, TensorFlow, etc. I don't really care about getting Armbian with Jetson Nano. I just want a SBC to test some software solutions.

Concerning Android, i don't care Android.

Well, i guess i have nothing to wait from Odroid (unable to give answers to my questions). I think it's time to close this topic.

So long.

Alain

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by blu » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:24 pm

crashoverride wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:57 am
OpenCL is a vendor neutral API. It is currently supported on Mali GPUs and CPUs by ARM.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL
I haven't seen releases of OCL for NEON for years now. My old bookmarks to arm.com return 404. I suspect PoCL is currently the only option for OCL on Arm CPUs. Which is ok, as PoCL is actively maintained and mature, plus modern gcc and clang provide full support for generic vectors, so writing OCL-like kernel code in c/c++ is straight-forward (example).
easybob95 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:23 pm
- Odroid sells half N2 (can't really use GPU and GPIO ; GPIO software support is just a joke)
Why is that (bolded part)? Sorry, I must have missed something in your previous posts. I mean, didn't you need G52-capable OCL, as the one provided in the odroid images?

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by crashoverride » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:45 pm

I should point out there is an actual open alternative to Intel's OpenCV. It is called OpenVX:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVX

I do not know the current status of OpenVX support from ARM.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by igorpec » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:41 am

easybob95 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:23 pm
Ok, i give up. You win, Odroid is the best.
You should always choose best hw for your use case and not the other way around. If not, you are obviously an amateur in this field and RPi or Windows will be best for you.
easybob95 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:23 pm
But the truth is :
Or twisted perception?
easybob95 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:23 pm
It is much better than RPi 4
Who cares. RPi is cheap general purpose toy for masses. No matter what, v4 is a decent board, while anything below was crap compared to similar products on the market for many years ... Most of the information regarding advantages of Raspberry Pi are just a stereotype.
easybob95 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:23 pm
RPi will take the lead
RPi4 is just an update with the world from 1-2 years ago. You call that a lead? :P
easybob95 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:23 pm
I just want a SBC to test some software solutions.
Yes, you will probably be able to test, but software support is crap and will remain for some time since Nvidia SDK is shit (which information you completely ignored) and they are not cooperating with Linux (mainline Linux, www.kernel.org). Without mainline support, Jetson can easily - its very common in this ARM world - become obsolete before it reached maturity. Some of the competition is luckily not that stupid ... That is what I tried to explain you with implementing Armbian in the story. We don't deal with hw where Linux is in too shitty state - implementation is expensive and project is amateur based.
easybob95 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:23 pm
Concerning Android, i don't care Android.
You actually have Android quality private kernel which is hard to build and which is glued with a "Linux" desktop. I am trying to explain you what quality Linux means, but its futile since you trust marketing department and self hollow perception much more ;)
easybob95 wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:23 pm
unable to give answers to my questions
You got your answers, just process them and stop by in while to tell us how much time you have thrown away by listening to "the market" ;)
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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by easybob95 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:10 am

Yes Igor, you are right as always. It must be cool to be clever and wise.

Bye.

Alain

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by memeka » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:19 am

RPi4 is quite a better upgrade than expected, to tell the truth. And the price is fantastic. But unfortunately with this update they lost their precious compatibility (unless you use that A72 with software compiled for arm6, like running i386 packages on a 64 bit machine).
Another thing is that the software state is quite messy atm for RPi4, and I think N2 and RPi4 will reach software maturity roughly at the same time.
@easybob95 not sure you are aware, N2 is being worked on mainline Linux kernel, with GPU, video decoding, 4K already working. I think the next LTS kernel will be usable for many on the N2, and the subsequent one should be suitable for all. By that time, I hope Panfrost development will allow the GPU to switch from closed source driver to Mesa, making it more open platform than RPi, a thing some users care about.
I also hope to see the 922X rev B used for the next batches of N2, brining the A73 to 2.2Ghz stock (maybe more with overclocking?), making the CPU gap even bigger.
And my 2c on OpenCV: on the XU4, which has a quite beefy GPU, OpenCL was significantly slower when using the GPU than the CPU on machine learning applications. So I ended up using the CPU version of OpenCV, optimised for NEON. Don’t know about the architectural changes in Bifrost, but I doubt G52 will suddenly be an order of magnitude faster than the CPU, especially given the clock speed difference and the number of cores. So for this kind of applications, having a N2-AI version with the NPU activated in 922X would be more useful, or use a NPU usb3 stick.
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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by meveric » Thu Jul 04, 2019 3:22 pm

memeka wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:19 am
RPi4 is quite a better upgrade than expected, to tell the truth. And the price is fantastic. But unfortunately with this update they lost their precious compatibility (unless you use that A72 with software compiled for arm6, like running i386 packages on a 64 bit machine).
Which is exactly what they do and what they also did with the RPi3 both are 64bit devices, but are hacked in a way the system thinks it's a 32bit CPU running 32bit Kernel and Software.
But that's only the "official" image, other images will use 64bit in the future.
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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by Nuems » Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:09 pm

Although I don't agree with easybob's sarcasm, lack of support for (certain parts of) an SBC's hardware can be quite frustrating. My first board of this kind was the original Beagleboard. While it looked promising for a while, support for both gpu (PowerVR...) and multimedia dsp faded away over time just as the neon-acceleration for X. That should have taught me not to buy anything with PowerVR graphics, but the Odroid XU looked too tempting. Well, you can find out about its fate in the EOL section of this forum. The future doesn't look too promising for my Odroid C1 either. Although most parts of the hardware seem to be supported by open source code (which appears to be a prerequisite for long term support), there remain the problems around meson drm. Tough luck.
As long as I use these boards just in my home network behind a router and a firewall, I don't consider the lack of updates much of a security problem, but even if you stick to specific software versions that work with your hardware, bitrot will bite at some point (very simple example: Kodi addons stop working because they aren't updated for old Kodi versions). And obviously, developing anything on an ancient software stack doesn't make much sense even if you're just a hobbyist.
Being a burnt child, mainline Linux support in a broad sense is a major factor for me and it will influence future buying decisions. I just wouldn't expect it from Nvidia...

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by blu » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:43 am

memeka wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:19 am
Don’t know about the architectural changes in Bifrost, but I doubt G52 will suddenly be an order of magnitude faster than the CPU, especially given the clock speed difference and the number of cores.
FWIW, N2's G52 performed 2.2x faster than 4x CA72 @1.3GHz on my OCL raytracing test (CA72 is an overall better NEON performer than CA73).

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by elatllat » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:44 am

Nuems wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:09 pm
...mainline Linux support in a broad sense is a major factor...
Why kernel 5.3 is a big deal for the N2 :)

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by memeka » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:23 am

blu wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:43 am
memeka wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:19 am
Don’t know about the architectural changes in Bifrost, but I doubt G52 will suddenly be an order of magnitude faster than the CPU, especially given the clock speed difference and the number of cores.
FWIW, N2's G52 performed 2.2x faster than 4x CA72 @1.3GHz on my OCL raytracing test (CA72 is an overall better NEON performer than CA73).
Raytracing and a few other operations were faster on the XU4 too. This is why I have specified machine learning applications. I think currently machine learning has much more applications for SBCs (e.g. image processing for drones, face/object recognition either for security or autonomous driving or even smart home, voice/sound recognition for smart home, etc...), than raytracing and other few niche applications.
elatllat wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:44 am
Nuems wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:09 pm
...mainline Linux support in a broad sense is a major factor...
Why kernel 5.3 is a big deal for the N2 :)
5.3 is just the beginning :D

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by blu » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:17 pm

memeka wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:23 am
Raytracing and a few other operations were faster on the XU4 too. This is why I have specified machine learning applications. I think currently machine learning has much more applications for SBCs (e.g. image processing for drones, face/object recognition either for security or autonomous driving or even smart home, voice/sound recognition for smart home, etc...), than raytracing and other few niche applications.
For the record, I was not equating raytracing to NNs and FIR, just giving a FWIW example of a non-hello-world CL codebase running on both NEON CPUs and Bifrost, with zero Bifrost optimisations. As I haven't done raytracing on Midgard I had no prior datapoints for Mali there. What raytracing did you run on XU4, btw -- something production-oriented like Blender's Cycles or something more synthetic?

Re Bifrost per se, the arch did change much indeed. The greatest change being ARM switched from 128-bit SIMD ALUs to scalar ALUs, resembling much more NV's archs. See chapters 7, 8 and 9 here: https://static.docs.arm.com/101574/0100 ... _00_en.pdf and notes throughout this: http://infocenter.arm.com/help/topic/co ... _00_en.pdf
Last edited by blu on Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by back2future » Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:57 pm

meveric wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:04 am
... SO NEW in fact, that sometimes not even the drivers for the hardware (or other software) exist yet. ...
How can someone develop hardware without having drivers for testing that hardware?

Bandwidth between cpu/memory compared to gpu/global main memory should be similar on S922X architecture.
[ Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:29 am, Scalar-Vector GPU Architectures
pages 11 "The L2 caches and main memory are generally heavily banked, which allows multiple simultaneous accesses, and provide high bandwidth (100s of GB/s). As an example, Intel’s Skylake i7-6700K processors have a 34 GB/s memory bandwidth [29], while NVIDIA’s Tesla K40 GPUs have 288 GB/s"
14, Figure 2.4: AMD Graphics Core Next compute unit architecture
,30 Figure 5.1: The scalar-vector multiprocessor architecture. The shaded and hatched boxes represent
the new or modified hardware components, respectively
,36 Figure 5.4: The number of scalar instruction increases with smaller warp sizes.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5982/b ... 1562431872

G52 details: https://www.anandtech.com/show/12501/ar ... d-video-ip ]
Last edited by back2future on Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by meveric » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:25 pm

back2future wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:57 pm
How can someone develop hardware without having drivers for testing that hardware?
I'd guess that depends on the use-case.
N2, use Android and it works perfectly fine. So there's software that runs the hardware.
You have to keep in mind, that these SoCs provided by AmLogic (NOT by HardKernel) are meant for the mobile and settop box market, and are made mainly with Android in mind.
That many people want to use them in a more productive way (Linux) doesn't mean it's the main focus of the company that provides the SoC (AmLogic).
They just say "it works". They don't say they have drivers and tested these for every single scenario under Linux.
Also there are often different companies involved. Not only AmLogic but "ARM" itself as well, for providing GPU drivers for example.
And they do not much care about Linux market either. On paper the hardware can do what they claim. And I guess under Android everything works as advertised by the SoC and GPU.
That doesn't mean it's also working under Linux, but since it works under Android, it means the hardware works.
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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by blu » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:40 pm

back2future wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:57 pm
Bandwidth between cpu/memory compared to gpu/global main memory should be similar on S922X architecture.
Mali has no device memory -- all global memory, CPU or GPU, is the same (note: even GPU 'local memory' is actually global memory). If there were any differences in GPU/global-mem and CPU/global-mem BW it would be due to some memory controller prioritizing one over the other (or CPU not having enough cores to saturate the channel(s)).

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by crashoverride » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:13 pm

blu wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:40 pm
If there were any differences in GPU/global-mem and CPU/global-mem BW it would be due to some memory controller prioritizing one over the other
Actually, since I hit this issue, in a perfect world that is true. However, in the crazy Linux DRM/DRI train wreck / dumpster fire, you usually get "GEM dumb buffers" with no guarantee of cache control, etc. This makes performance HIGHLY dependent on the "flavor" of the kernel you are using.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by McSpud3rd » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:14 pm

memeka wrote:@easybob95 not sure you are aware, N2 is being worked on mainline Linux kernel, with GPU, video decoding, 4K already working.
So, I'm not ashamed to say I am one of those guys who enjoys retro gaming, a bit of karaoke (using Performous) and tinkering with SoC boards. I'm also known to <ahem> impulse buy on occasion. So (I bet you can see where this is going) when I saw the specs for the N2 I thought "I've gotta get me some of that high performance SoC action" and bought an N2. Without realising just how "development" board it was. My fault entirely and I'm not throwing my toys out of my pram. Once I realised I couldn't get OpenGL ES up and running right away with Performous etc I just put the N2 in a cupboard and promised to come back to it once people more developy than myself had got something ready. I would class myself as a very advanced user who's not afraid to compile "stuff" surf the web (even going 20 pages deep in Google, yeah that's how hardcore I am) :P Anyway, to get to the crux of it @memeka I was interested in your post I quoted above. Would you say the mainline Linux build is ready for someone like me to start toying with? I'd be happy to help out with user testing if that's something that this project would benefit from at this point?

Cheers all!

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by easybob95 » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:57 pm

I just get Jetson Nano yesterday and after a couple of hours, i must say Nano works great from what i have tested.

My Python software (for sky observation) works great and for now, i have no issue.

Nano configuration is easy and i did not have issues i had with N2 (screen resolution, keyboard configuration, network, etc.). Jetson Nano works immediately. With N2, i had to surch for a couple of hours to solve the issues.

So, i would like to say that igorpec was a bit wrong when he tried to explain me Nano is a piece of shit. I guess Igor is involved in Armbian and he has some problem to make an Armbian image for the Nano. Nvidia has nothing to do with Armbian (that's quite normal) so Igor is angry. For sure and for now, Armbian is useless with N2 and Nano. Maybe in 1 year, Armbian will be useful but at this time, Ubuntu will be as good as Armbian. So Armbian is mainly useless.

Anyway, Jetson Nano works really good.

I made a speed test, using an opencv program to compare N2 and Nano CPU :
- Odroid N2 : 1.5 seconds
- Jetson Nano : 2 seconds

I am a bit disappointed with N2 ; i thought it would be much faster than Nano. He is faster but not so much.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by powerful owl » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:40 pm

Wait... even though the Jetson Nano has CUDA and "opencv with GPU capabilities", it's still slower than the N2?

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by easybob95 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:19 am

I used no specific routines to use the Nano GPU. It's only CPU routines.

So, Jetson Nano CPU is slower than Odroid N2 CPU (no surprise) but the difference is not that high.

But, i also have to say that standard experience with Jetson Nano (Ubuntu opening windows, chromium etc.) seems to be better than N2.

My quick post about Nano was only to say that igorpec told bullshits. Nano is a good SBC. Different from N2 but good board. For example, i have direct support of Odroid Wifi dongle. Everything seems ok.

Alain

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by blu » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:50 am

Jetson Nano has 2.5x the RAM BW and 2x the L2 cache of the N2, it's natural that for some CPU tasks it may even outperform the N2. That said, Nano is a 20nm CA57 design, and hits its thermal limits more often and quicker than the 12nm CA73. Basically, Nano @ full-power profile is rated at > 10W and active cooling is recommended for full-power profile.
Last edited by blu on Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by easybob95 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:19 am

That's why a get a fan.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by blu » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:57 am

Sure, if a fan is ok with you, by all means -- get one (as you'll likely need it). My main issue with the Nano, which I otherwise consider a promising little GPU performer, is that NV flat out refuse to provide any OCL for it -- it's a CUDA-only machine, and it will remain so through its entire life. Aside from CUDA, Nano's GPU stack needs some more engineering work by NV (i.e. erratic CPU spikes during video playback, wayland sync issues, to name I few I've come across), but I'm sure NV will iron those out, eventually.

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by easybob95 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:26 am

As i mainly want to make image treatment, Nano is ok for me. I want to try pycuda and Cuda so it's the good sbc for me. I am finally no that much interested with ocl. I will try opencv with cuda optimization and soke things like that.

I think it will be interesting. During my work with Nano, maybe N2 will get better software support.

Alain

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by igorpec » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:07 am

easybob95 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:57 pm
Nvidia has nothing to do with Armbian (that's quite normal) so Igor is angry. For sure and for now, Armbian is useless with N2 and Nano. Maybe in 1 year, Armbian will be useful but at this time, Ubuntu will be as good as Armbian. So Armbian is mainly useless.
I am angry on how terrible low level and Linux support is on Nano. Since you have no idea what that means, its pointless to discuss. You clearly have absolutely no idea what Armbian is as well. Let me give you some very short overview. Armbian is a build tool, an engine to create a Debian based distribution. Like Yocto, like buildroot. Linux distribution or images are a side product, a demonstration that it works. And if a vendor provides shit SDK, its (almost) impossible / hard / time consuming to build a Linux from sources. Any Linux, not just Armbian. That's the main issue here. Since you only see the desktop and you don't care if you can't change or improve anything, just enjoy and remain ...

There is (unofficial/community made) Armbian for Nano ... its a bit improved Nvidia's Ubuntu (official Ubuntu does not exits) but its not build, but glued. That is good enough for demonstration purposes ...
ARMBIAN - follow on Twitter
linux for ARM development boards with user friendly development tools

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Re: Good hardware but with good software ? Need highlights from Odroid

Unread post by memeka » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:27 am

easybob95 wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:57 pm
Anyway, Jetson Nano works really good.

I made a speed test, using an opencv program to compare N2 and Nano CPU :
- Odroid N2 : 1.5 seconds
- Jetson Nano : 2 seconds

I am a bit disappointed with N2 ; i thought it would be much faster than Nano. He is faster but not so much.

Alain
Disappointed in the cheaper product that is 25% faster?
Lol

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