ODROID-C3

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ODROID-C3

Unread postby LordConrad » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:32 pm

I would like the ODROID-C3 to have USB 3.0 and a quad-core A72 CPU. With newer processors being manufactured at
14-16nm, this should be possible without using to much power.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby tchiwam » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:36 pm

I would like to keep the C familly with a passive heatsink, yeah USB3.0 would be a dream for that series of board.

The XU series should be the best perfomance in the form factor. The C series should have the best fanless for ~40$
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby LordConrad » Sat Jun 25, 2016 2:12 pm

There is no reason that the CPU I mentioned couldn't run fanless. The Exynos 5422 used in the ODROID-XU4 was also used in some versions of the Galaxy S5, which has no fans.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby docteurcpu » Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:20 pm

ODROID C3 with the new Amlogic S912 (Octo-core) HDR10 & Dolby Vision ready , its good idea ;)

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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby rooted » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:55 am

LordConrad wrote:There is no reason that the CPU I mentioned couldn't run fanless. The Exynos 5422 used in the ODROID-XU4 was also used in some versions of the Galaxy S5, which has no fans.

In the international S5, and it is known to suffer from heat issues and severe speed limiting.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby ropodope » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:00 pm

the s912 is def the way to go. it's the natural successor to the C2 and is the next "big" thing in Android boxes. the Nexbox with amazing specs is being dropped September 16th and would be absolutely killer as the new C3.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby memeka » Wed Aug 10, 2016 3:22 pm

ropodope wrote:the s912 is def the way to go. it's the natural successor to the C2 and is the next "big" thing in Android boxes. the Nexbox with amazing specs is being dropped September 16th and would be absolutely killer as the new C3.


no it's not.
S912 has basically 2 times more CPU cores than S905, and a slightly better GPU in terms of raw performance (plus the advantage of being Vulkan-ready).
CPU performance and vulkan are not the main issues with C2 atm, having USB3 and/or SATA would be more beneficial.

PS: also, for better CPU performance, you would want something with better performance/core, not just double the # of cores.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby hugolp » Wed Aug 10, 2016 4:34 pm

memeka wrote:
ropodope wrote:the s912 is def the way to go. it's the natural successor to the C2 and is the next "big" thing in Android boxes. the Nexbox with amazing specs is being dropped September 16th and would be absolutely killer as the new C3.


no it's not.
S912 has basically 2 times more CPU cores than S905, and a slightly better GPU in terms of raw performance (plus the advantage of being Vulkan-ready).
CPU performance and vulkan are not the main issues with C2 atm, having USB3 and/or SATA would be more beneficial.

PS: also, for better CPU performance, you would want something with better performance/core, not just double the # of cores.


I have to agree with the others saying that the CX family does not need USB3 and SATA. The CX is about very unexpensive media box. If you want USB3, SATA and server capabilities you go for the X series. The X5 should be what you are looking for when it comes out, but the C2 is fine as it is.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby rooted » Wed Aug 10, 2016 4:46 pm

Even though many (if not most) use the C2 for media it is not designed to be an inexpensive "media box".
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby memeka » Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:36 pm

there are cheaper and better (now with S905-X) media box solutions.
that's not C2. there's GPIO pins on it for a reason.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby odroid » Wed Aug 10, 2016 7:34 pm

Normally, we don't talk about the next model publicly. But I want to share some information to hear your ideas.

We are internally evaluating the S912 performance on Android platform.
S912 CPU multi-thread performance is 1.5~1.6 times faster than S905 thanks to 4 more cores.
But single-thread performance is very identical to the S905 as we expected.

Because there are some bugs in early version of the Mali 8xx driver, we couldn't compare the GPU performance yet.
I think it must be two+ times faster than C2 S905. We will confirm it when we have a new working driver.

Anyway, because HDR/VP9 video contents are not popular yet, it is really hard to decide the brain of the next ODROID-Cx series for '2017.
We will keep improving the C2/XU4 platform software for a few months until we find a good direction.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby meveric » Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:27 pm

More cores rarely make any difference.
Many applications are limited to the power of a single core (and maybe a few background tasks on other cores, that rarely matter). I would rather prefer a SoC with 2 Cores that are very fast than 8 cores that are rather slow and the C2 is "slow" compared to the XU4.
The C2 is about as fast as a U3 and the U3 is over 4 years old by now, so really there is no real improvement.

Having 64bit SoC and OpenGL ES 3.1 capable GPU would be nice, but at that speed it's probably not really "worth it".

I still would prefer to see a Exynos 7 or 8 SoC (or something similar) rather than a AmLogic S9xx, but I guess that doesn't fit the "less than $50" policy that seems to be going around right now.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:07 pm

odroid wrote:But I want to share some information to hear your ideas.

I definitely want a S912 based product!

Amlogic has historically released two products in the same family. In the past we had S805 and S812, now we have S905 and S912. The Sx05 SoCs are entry level while the Sx12 models are feature enhanced. For this reason, I think it makes more sense to call a S912 based board a "pro" version of C2 rather than C3. It sends a stronger message that this is a more powerful C2 rather than something completely new as C2 was to C1.

While Kodi and other programs will likely not benefit from 8 cores, the S905/12 supports virtualization. This is an area where the extra 4 cores make a difference. If S912 supports more memory (3GB?), then it becomes even more attractive for VM scenarios. Even without extra memory, the extra 4 cores are beneficial to those using the device as a development board rather than a media center. I have never heard a developer say "please do not give me any more processing power". :lol:

The Mali-T820 is also a welcome addition. It allows for new classes of applications that are currently not possible on C2. This GPU should support OpenCL, Vulkan, and GLES 3.1. Being a unified shader architecture, it brings GP-GPU possibilities to the platform. If it also brings higher fill rates, then it will enable the GPU based video processing scenario (4K@60) that the next version of Kodi is targeting. (There is a desire to move from the video layer with aml_libs, to a GPU based frame buffer according to threads on this forum.)

Of course, price is going to be an important factor. If the price is more than C2 but less than XU4, then I am comfortable with it. I do not see C2/C3 replacing the XU4 line; rather I see it as a compliment. While XU4/5 offers higher performance, it also offers a higher price. I think this product/price diversity is important to consumers allowing them to pick the trade-off that suits their needs.

[edit]
I would also like to point out that if there are other SoCs from different companies being considered for future products, I am in favor of that. About the only "show stopper" is anything with a PowerVR GPU.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby meveric » Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:07 am

crashoverride wrote:I have never heard a developer say "please do not give me any more processing power". :lol:

That depends, imagine a board with 20 cores and 512 MB RAM ;)
Even with 4 cores and 2GB RAM I often use more RAM during compiling that the board offers. Having 8 threads for compiling with only 2GB RAM will likely trigger the out of memory killer from linux quite often (I've seen this on the XU3 and XU4 already). Also I'm thinking of thermal issues. If you end up with a board that has 8 cores, but clocks down to 1/3 of it's maximum speed all the time when you compile on all 8 cores, that isn't really an improvement either.

crashoverride wrote:[edit]
I would also like to point out that if there are other SoCs from different companies being considered for future products, I am in favor of that. About the only "show stopper" is anything with a PowerVR GPU.

Depends I guess, if you look at the OpenPandora for example, they got to use the PowerVR to it's fullest and are running quite good with it. Their next SoC comes with a PowerVR GPU as well, so I guess as usual it depends on the driver support rather than the GPU itself.
The Exynos Series uses Mali GPU as well as the AmLogic SoCs, still on Exynos we have the ability to use xf86-video-armsoc rather than the xf86-video-mali, which has many benefits especially in higher resolutions and fullscreen as well as changing resolutions "on the fly" rather than having to reboot the system all the time. Drivers are more important than just a powerful GPU, although I prefer a OpenGL ES 3.x capable GPU as well.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:46 am

meveric wrote:If you end up with a board that has 8 cores, but clocks down to 1/3 of it's maximum speed all the time when you compile on all 8 cores, that isn't really an improvement either.

I agree with that. It may be necessary to equip a S912 board with a heatsink+fan to get the most out of it. While that would upset media center users, the compromise would be for end users to disable or reduce the clock rate of one of the clusters and just use the heatsink with fan disabled. This is entirely speculation though because I have no idea what the thermal characteristics of the S912 are. Even without an additional 4 cores, the new GPU is the main improvement since it allows things that could not run before to be used.

meveric wrote:on Exynos we have the ability to use xf86-video-armsoc rather than the xf86-video-mali

This actually comes down to the display controller driver. If the S905/912 had a DRM/DRI display driver, it would also use xf86-video-armsoc or the generic mode setting driver.


What I really want in a future C3/4 (future Amlogic chipset), is:
1) Generic ARM IOMMU/SMMU - This removes limitations from the display controller, codecs, and GE2D making them much easier to use and more flexible. Rather than fixed framebuffer memory, the framebuffer can be any arbitrary memory. (zero-copy display). It also eliminates the need for any CMA reserved memory. If memory is not used (headless), it is never allocated.
2) USB 3 - This allows faster communication with storage devices like HDD/SDD. While many would prefer SATA, USB 3 is a compromise that is useful to everyone, even if as just an extra USB port.
3) Mali T-xxx as entry level, Mali G-xx as feature enhanced - Its time to let go of Mali-4xx and let it serve the IoT market instead. ;)

Since the above does not exist in any SoC I know of, I will take the S912 as an interim solution.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby memeka » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:31 am

Having a new product requires a lot of maintaining work. Currently, there are still issues with XU4, C1 and C2. I would rather have these existing products improved, than have another one with little benefits.
The difference between S812 and S805 was huge - not so much between S912 and S905.
For 99% of the tasks, the extra CPU power will be useless, and would require a fan.
@odroid thinks GPU performance will be 2x better - I disagree. I think it will be *at most* 1.5 times.
In theory, S905 GPU should be able to reach a peak of 33 Gflops, while S912 GPU should reach 44 Gflops.

So having *marginal* improvements at the cost of poor support for both the old and new products is definitely not worth it.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby meveric » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:42 am

I still would love to see a arm64 + OpenGL ES 3.x board to try the current Dolphin emulator, but with the S912 it wouldn't be worth it. The CPU is to weak, more cores don't help at all.

I also agree with @memeka, none of the ODROIDs currently available can fully use the potential of the GPU due to bad drivers. and 33 Gflops vs 44 Gflops, means on "paper" 1/3 more speed. So even less than 1.5x the speed, considering as well, that the drivers most likely will suck it might be even less than that. The only benefit is OpenGL ES 3.x features, THAT IS if they are implemented correctly.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby indium » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:01 am

I'll insert my slowpoke comment - I am not excited about s912, I would be glad to see rk3399 on C3 instead. I have no idea how they compare price-wise. But I understand it would sound not relevant for HK. It's not easy to add yet another vendor. Probably. Of course it is more expensive, but than it should be cheaper than Samsung's ones so it would be kind of in the middle of existing ranges. I believe it would fit in the Cx line price-wise. And also, I believe Cx line has some margin to get more expensive still reamining cost attractive and yet being improved performance wise.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:45 am

indium wrote:I would be glad to see rk3399 on C3 instead

The RK3399 does indeed look interesting on paper. My only objection would be calling it "C3". It should be a new product line instead. I see it as more of a replacement for XU4 than an evolution of the C series.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby memeka » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:01 am

RK3399 would have the rough performance of XU4:
- better small cores
- better big cores, but 2 instead of 4
- gpu with lower peak performance (on paper) but probably better sustained performance

but with some added benefits:
- 64bits
- 4K
- HDMI2.0
- USB type C
...

so while it won't be a true upgrade in terms of performance, it will be an upgrade in features.

HOWEVER, i don't know how supported RK chips are in linux (e.g. vpu, drm), so features on paper might not translate on features you can use...

i see an upgrade to XU4 having:

- at least 4 big cores (even if no little core)
- 4 gb ram
- sata (or usb3/sata) preferably 2 interfaces with 2 separate controllers
- 1 or 2 gb nics
- good linux support :)
- transcoding capabilities :)
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby nobe » Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:55 pm

i think another soc could be interesting : the mediatek mt8173
it seems to be well supported in mainline kernel, including its vpu : search for mt8173 at http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/li ... 2016-July/

but (there is always a but), its gpu is the Imagination GX6250...
do you guys think no mali = no way ?
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby meveric » Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:31 pm

WHICH GPU shouldn't matter, as long as there are drivers available to use them.

Qualcom with Adreno could also be interesting, since there's a "freedreno" project which provides opensource drivers for Adreno GPUs. But well, that's all wishful thinking ;)
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:06 pm

meveric wrote:WHICH GPU shouldn't matter, as long as there are drivers available to use them.

The BeagleBone series uses PowerVR and its near impossible to use due to license restrictions. I have been told that HardKernel previously faced this issue too with Odroid XU (or some other model that had PowerVR).

Before I forget to mention it again, I need to voice my desperate plea:
Please include a header for RESET on the next board! Doing kernel work, I constantly lock up the board and need to cycle power to it. This causes a lot of wear and tear on my USB attached HDD: every power cycle is a spin up/down. Its also mechanically wear and tear on the power socket itself.

I would also really like to see a single push button connected to a previously unused GPIO. This allows for power on/off, recovery, or what ever other scenario the user programs it to mean.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby meveric » Thu Aug 11, 2016 10:48 pm

crashoverride wrote:Before I forget to mention it again, I need to voice my desperate plea:
Please include a header for RESET on the next board! Doing kernel work, I constantly lock up the board and need to cycle power to it. This causes a lot of wear and tear on my USB attached HDD: every power cycle is a spin up/down. Its also mechanically wear and tear on the power socket itself.

I would also really like to see a single push button connected to a previously unused GPIO. This allows for power on/off, recovery, or what ever other scenario the user programs it to mean.

Image

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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby ropodope » Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:22 am

memeka wrote:
ropodope wrote:the s912 is def the way to go. it's the natural successor to the C2 and is the next "big" thing in Android boxes. the Nexbox with amazing specs is being dropped September 16th and would be absolutely killer as the new C3.


no it's not.
S912 has basically 2 times more CPU cores than S905, and a slightly better GPU in terms of raw performance (plus the advantage of being Vulkan-ready).
CPU performance and vulkan are not the main issues with C2 atm, having USB3 and/or SATA would be more beneficial.

PS: also, for better CPU performance, you would want something with better performance/core, not just double the # of cores.


S912 has USB 3.0 i do believe and there are a couple other differences you have failed to mention in your attempt to "curb my enthusiasm." if you are happier in your own justification for disagreeing that is all well and good. meanwhile i am reading the tea leaves and they are most definitely heading toward the S912 because that is what the majority of end users either want or very soon will. it also keeps the die hards future proofed for a while.

like i said, it's the next big thing and if Odroid decides to get on board with it for their next C3 then i imagine many will rapidly purchase it with eagerness. if not then someone else will be making big bank.

the market will dicatate but by all means enjoy the C2. i know i certainly do....for now.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby ropodope » Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:24 am

rooted wrote:Even though many (if not most) use the C2 for media it is not designed to be an inexpensive "media box".


was it designed to NOT be a media box?
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby ropodope » Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:27 am

odroid wrote:Normally, we don't talk about the next model publicly. But I want to share some information to hear your ideas.

We are internally evaluating the S912 performance on Android platform.
S912 CPU multi-thread performance is 1.5~1.6 times faster than S905 thanks to 4 more cores.
But single-thread performance is very identical to the S905 as we expected.

Because there are some bugs in early version of the Mali 8xx driver, we couldn't compare the GPU performance yet.
I think it must be two+ times faster than C2 S905. We will confirm it when we have a new working driver.

Anyway, because HDR/VP9 video contents are not popular yet, it is really hard to decide the brain of the next ODROID-Cx series for '2017.
We will keep improving the C2/XU4 platform software for a few months until we find a good direction.


i appreciate your considerate and thoughtful reply to legit questions regarding the upcoming S912. the fact that you are even looking at, and/or evaluating the possibility of it speaks to the awesomeness of Amlogic for such power while being able to retain lower cost passing it on to the consumer. how can anything that extends range and functionality while keeping a price point low be a bad thing?

in my mind it can't be. freedom of choice enhances the end user experience and opens the flood gates with continued possibilities in the world of computing. period.

thank you for your consideration in advance wherever it leads ODROID in their decision process.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby rooted » Fri Aug 12, 2016 5:47 am

ropodope wrote:
rooted wrote:Even though many (if not most) use the C2 for media it is not designed to be an inexpensive "media box".


was it designed to NOT be a media box?

The SoC was designed with media boxes in mind, the C2 is a development board...meaning do with it what you want.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby meveric » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:13 am

ropodope wrote:like i said, it's the next big thing

Why is it a "big thing" it's just something that other vendors have for years already.
Take any Exynos 7 processor for example:
They are already on market, some as early as end 2014 already using 20nm production, while AmLogic is still using 28nm for their "next big thing" which came out end of 2015. Since early 2015 the Exynos 7 even come in a 14nm Manufacturing Process.
And all of these are faster than your so called "next big thing".
ropodope wrote:and if Odroid decides to get on board with it for their next C3 then i imagine many will rapidly purchase it with eagerness. if not then someone else will be making big bank.

Based on what assumption? Or is it just cause you say so?
ropodope wrote:the market will dicatate but by all means enjoy the C2. i know i certainly do....for now.

I'd rather stay with the XU3/XU4, although it's much older it has far better performance, better software support and a better GPU.
Unless you use the C2 as a media center for 4k and HEVC it's a pretty useless devices compared to other ODROIDs.
And that is where we are back to the main use of AmLogic SoCs.. They are made for set-top boxes. That is what they are good for, but besides that........

ropodope wrote:the fact that you are even looking at, and/or evaluating the possibility of it speaks to the awesomeness of Amlogic

I would hardly call them "awesome" the C1 was the worst board ever produced by HardKernel. When it first came out not even the Network was working correctly. All of the AmLogic SoCs can't decode MPEG2 with hardware decoder, C1 and C2 suffer from a Alpha issue in their X11 drivers and for this require quite some hacks to work.
The C2 only runs properly with tons of fixed permissions for different AmLogic devices upon boot, or else you can't use any of the VPU capabilities.
The C1 has unstable USB drivers, the SD card support is "bad" to be nice about it. And the list goes on and on.
The scaling capability of the GPU drivers are aweful, 200 FPS in window mode 30 FPS in fullscreen.
For someone that only uses these devices to watch movies, it may look "awesome" but the truth is, that they have serious issues left and right.

ropodope wrote:for such power while being able to retain lower cost passing it on to the consumer.

And that exactly is the issue with some people. They aren't willing to pay anything at all but expect a devices that is at least as good as Intel Core i5 Laptop! But never think about what this low cost devices actually mean in terms of quality!

ropodope wrote:how can anything that extends range and functionality while keeping a price point low be a bad thing?

There is a very good analogy that I heard some time ago...
If you have an old crappy car, and modify it so the exhaust is extremly loud to sound <good>, doesn't mean you suddenly have a good car; it just means you have a LOUD crappy old car!


ropodope wrote:in my mind it can't be.

Then your mind is set of a very few points of these boards, and your usecases might not be the same as everyones else usecases.

ropodope wrote:freedom of choice enhances the end user experience and opens the flood gates with continued possibilities in the world of computing. period.

Freedom of choice also means to be able to say "there are better choices than this particular one".
Floods can kill people and animals, and are rarely considered "a good thing".
HardKernel could probably throw out a new board every half a year or more often if they so desire and with that could "flood the market" with tons of crappy devices.
Doesn't mean that is desireable. I'd rather have a board that has decent driver and hardware support than the ability to choose from 20 devices, that are not supported since no one has time to support them cause they produce more and more boards.

===========================================================================
I don't say a new board is necessarily a bad thing, but the S912 is hardly an improvement that any "serious" user will notice.
And using it for another HTPC project is rather stupid, since there is NO improvement over the C2 in matter of HTPC capabilities.
The only thing I see would be a benefit for someone would be USB 3.0 support.. Something that we already have for YEARS with the XU series.
Besides that, the S912 offers no real new capabilities that I would consider worth buying. The CPU is too slow. More cores doesn't mean programs run faster. Many programs have only ONE working thread. So having more cores means nothing at all to these programs.
OpenGL ES 3.x support also means nothing if there's no programs that can make use of it, and to be honest, the only program that comes to my mind that would benefit from 64bit ARM and OpenGL ES 3.x capable GPU won't run on CPUs as slow as the S912.

I don't say a Cx with an S912 is a bad board, but it's far from being a "big thing" by any means.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby memeka » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:31 am

there's no USB3 on S912.
the advantage of S912 on a media box is HDR support. but there are newer S905 (S905X) versions that have HDR as well, which would be easier to make a C2+ out of.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby meveric » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:36 am

memeka wrote:there's no USB3 on S912.

Well the list of awesome new features gets shorter and shorter ;)
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby rooted » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:17 am

memeka wrote:there's no USB3 on S912.
the advantage of S912 on a media box is HDR support. but there are newer S905 (S905X) versions that have HDR as well, which would be easier to make a C2+ out of.

This, a S905X C2+

But we need SPI
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:24 am

I doubt S912 would be difficult to support. In fact, I would consider it "low hanging fruit" in the support arena. My guess is that it will use the exact same kernel and drivers as S905 with the exception of Mali kernel/userpsace drivers. The C1/C2 transition was significant due to an entirely new processor architecture. There is no such transition for S905 to S912. Effectively, only Mali has changed (SPI returns if the block diagram is to be believed).

Basing the Odroid C series provides a nice "tick-tock" product line for HardKernel if they do a "Cx" with Sx05 and a "Cx Pro" with Sx12 a year apart. The ARM world moves very fast. Not releasing a new product is not going to make Samsung release a new BSP with kernel fixes for XU4. So I don't realistically see a down side to a new Odroid C product. The reality is we need to keep moving forward because at some point the Exynos used in XU4 is going to be end-of-life (EOL). Its better to launch a new product and get the bugs ironed out before you are forced to by an EOL.

My personal preference would be for a S912 this year in addition to a MediaTek, Rockchip, or other vendor based new Odroid series for 2017 as a potential XU4 replacement. In addition to hardware, it comes down to how well the vendor supports their SoC.

HardKernel has been in business a long time and has a great deal of experience doing what they do. Therefore, I have confidence in whatever decisions they make for the future.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby ropodope » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:46 am

memeka wrote:there's no USB3 on S912.
the advantage of S912 on a media box is HDR support. but there are newer S905 (S905X) versions that have HDR as well, which would be easier to make a C2+ out of.


says who? everything i read says it will.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby ropodope » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:47 am

rooted wrote:
ropodope wrote:
rooted wrote:Even though many (if not most) use the C2 for media it is not designed to be an inexpensive "media box".


was it designed to NOT be a media box?

The SoC was designed with media boxes in mind, the C2 is a development board...meaning do with it what you want.


what's wrong with someone wanting to develop on a decidedly more powerful amlogic based board? this really seems to bother you.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby ropodope » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:54 am

meveric wrote:
ropodope wrote:like i said, it's the next big thing

Why is it a "big thing" it's just something that other vendors have for years already.
Take any Exynos 7 processor for example:
They are already on market, some as early as end 2014 already using 20nm production, while AmLogic is still using 28nm for their "next big thing" which came out end of 2015. Since early 2015 the Exynos 7 even come in a 14nm Manufacturing Process.
And all of these are faster than your so called "next big thing".
ropodope wrote:and if Odroid decides to get on board with it for their next C3 then i imagine many will rapidly purchase it with eagerness. if not then someone else will be making big bank.

Based on what assumption? Or is it just cause you say so?
ropodope wrote:the market will dicatate but by all means enjoy the C2. i know i certainly do....for now.

I'd rather stay with the XU3/XU4, although it's much older it has far better performance, better software support and a better GPU.
Unless you use the C2 as a media center for 4k and HEVC it's a pretty useless devices compared to other ODROIDs.
And that is where we are back to the main use of AmLogic SoCs.. They are made for set-top boxes. That is what they are good for, but besides that........

ropodope wrote:the fact that you are even looking at, and/or evaluating the possibility of it speaks to the awesomeness of Amlogic

I would hardly call them "awesome" the C1 was the worst board ever produced by HardKernel. When it first came out not even the Network was working correctly. All of the AmLogic SoCs can't decode MPEG2 with hardware decoder, C1 and C2 suffer from a Alpha issue in their X11 drivers and for this require quite some hacks to work.
The C2 only runs properly with tons of fixed permissions for different AmLogic devices upon boot, or else you can't use any of the VPU capabilities.
The C1 has unstable USB drivers, the SD card support is "bad" to be nice about it. And the list goes on and on.
The scaling capability of the GPU drivers are aweful, 200 FPS in window mode 30 FPS in fullscreen.
For someone that only uses these devices to watch movies, it may look "awesome" but the truth is, that they have serious issues left and right.

ropodope wrote:for such power while being able to retain lower cost passing it on to the consumer.

And that exactly is the issue with some people. They aren't willing to pay anything at all but expect a devices that is at least as good as Intel Core i5 Laptop! But never think about what this low cost devices actually mean in terms of quality!

ropodope wrote:how can anything that extends range and functionality while keeping a price point low be a bad thing?

There is a very good analogy that I heard some time ago...
If you have an old crappy car, and modify it so the exhaust is extremly loud to sound <good>, doesn't mean you suddenly have a good car; it just means you have a LOUD crappy old car!


ropodope wrote:in my mind it can't be.

Then your mind is set of a very few points of these boards, and your usecases might not be the same as everyones else usecases.

ropodope wrote:freedom of choice enhances the end user experience and opens the flood gates with continued possibilities in the world of computing. period.

Freedom of choice also means to be able to say "there are better choices than this particular one".
Floods can kill people and animals, and are rarely considered "a good thing".
HardKernel could probably throw out a new board every half a year or more often if they so desire and with that could "flood the market" with tons of crappy devices.
Doesn't mean that is desireable. I'd rather have a board that has decent driver and hardware support than the ability to choose from 20 devices, that are not supported since no one has time to support them cause they produce more and more boards.

===========================================================================
I don't say a new board is necessarily a bad thing, but the S912 is hardly an improvement that any "serious" user will notice.
And using it for another HTPC project is rather stupid, since there is NO improvement over the C2 in matter of HTPC capabilities.
The only thing I see would be a benefit for someone would be USB 3.0 support.. Something that we already have for YEARS with the XU series.
Besides that, the S912 offers no real new capabilities that I would consider worth buying. The CPU is too slow. More cores doesn't mean programs run faster. Many programs have only ONE working thread. So having more cores means nothing at all to these programs.
OpenGL ES 3.x support also means nothing if there's no programs that can make use of it, and to be honest, the only program that comes to my mind that would benefit from 64bit ARM and OpenGL ES 3.x capable GPU won't run on CPUs as slow as the S912.

I don't say a Cx with an S912 is a bad board, but it's far from being a "big thing" by any means.


though doth protest greatly. perhaps a bit TOO greatly?
no serious user could notice the improvement to the board? ok.
when Nexbox releases their S912 box next month we'll see according to sales what is meant by "next big thing." Odroid can decide what is in their own best financial interest.
the freedom of choice is pro or con. your freedom to not choose does not negate mine to approve of.
your analogy of the crappy car fails because you make the assumption (false in my mind) that the C2 is "crappy" to begin with.

finally i will say that you obviously enjoy the banter which is fine. for you it's not the ideal board, but i dare say soon enough according to sales which are driven by the majority of end users that the S912 will be preferred by many as their own upgrade of choice and you can enjoy your X board until the cows come home.

i guess you could say that's your freedom of choice.

peace out.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby indium » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:48 am

ropodope, you are trying so hard, spilling bombastic epithets, glorifying the ruler. you are acting as a sage vizier. you speak almost odes.
I wish Amlogic did so with its s912. :lol:
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby ropodope » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:56 am

indium wrote:ropodope, you are trying so hard, spilling bombastic epithets, glorifying the ruler. you are acting as a sage vizier. you speak almost odes.
I wish Amlogic did so with its s912. :lol:



hehehe. awesome response. i love it. thank you for making me LOL!! i hope you have a good evening. :D
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:42 am

I also wanted to mention this idea: how about adding a very small SPI-NOR flash device or just a connector so one can be added?

The idea is that the flash should be just large enough to hold u-boot. This would allow the device to boot without any SD card or eMMC. This means the Odroid could network boot or boot from a USB HDD. Since the nor-flash is re-writable, it can be upgraded to support new features unlike a permanently burned boot-rom.

[edit]
Since SPI-NOR is likely the highest priority boot device, there will also likely need to be a jumper or switch to alter the boot device priority.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby meveric » Fri Aug 12, 2016 3:30 pm

@ropodope

May I ask what makes the board so awesome for you?
What's your use-case for these type of boards, and what are your experinces with other boards (preferably other ODROID products) you can compare it with?
And what improvement do you expect over your current C2, meaning what do you expect will run better than it runs currently?
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby ropodope » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:06 am

meveric wrote:@ropodope

May I ask what makes the board so awesome for you?
What's your use-case for these type of boards, and what are your experinces with other boards (preferably other ODROID products) you can compare it with?
And what improvement do you expect over your current C2, meaning what do you expect will run better than it runs currently?


what makes it so good for me is the high performance gaming gpu, usb 3.0 support, hdmi 2.0A and VP9 support. i also love the fact that it will support extra 10/100m phy not to mention built in stereo dac's along with dolby vision. these are wonderful improvements that will come with this board.

i understand that many of these features are on the 905x board but the GPU enhancements, the dolby vision and the usb 3.0 are not and i want to be able to achieve true AC wifi speeds finally with a wifi dongle which will never happen without usb 3.0 on it.

they appeal to me greatly not only now but for growing with it going forward.

i love the current C2 board of which i am a proud owner. HK seems to constantly improve and update it's OS and driver support so i feel fortunate to have found this company.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby meveric » Sat Aug 13, 2016 4:36 am

ropodope wrote:what makes it so good for me is the high performance gaming gpu

On what are you intend to use this better GPU? What graphically intense games or programs do you run on the C2 that you expect to run better on a S912?

ropodope wrote:usb 3.0 support

Informations I found indicates, that the S912 does NOT have USB 3.0 support

ropodope wrote:i understand that many of these features are on the 905x board but the GPU enhancements, the dolby vision and the usb 3.0 are not and i want to be able to achieve true AC wifi speeds finally with a wifi dongle which will never happen without usb 3.0 on it.

That depends if you are actually able to use the GPU. There aren't many games and programs out there that actually can make use of OpenGL ES 3.x, so I really wonder what you want to use the increased graphics power for. Also if you actually compare the specs of the Mali T820 used in the S912 and the Mali 450 in the S905 you will notice that the overall performance is pretty similar. I know that the Mali 450 of the C2 comes with 6 shader cores, but it's likely that the S912 only has 4 of em, although I'm not sure. The Frequency on both should be the same, so ne speed benefit here, in fact, the Mali 450 is listed with up to 5.9 Gpix/s while the Mali T820 only has 2.6Gpix/s, but therefore it's theoretically twice as fast with triangles. Still, in the end I don't think there will be much more "speed" that you feel from the GPU at all.
Considering the expected very bad GPU drivers (as usual from ARM) there's probably no speed benefit at all in the newer GPUs, which brings it down to the additional GPU features and my question: what you intend to use it on?
As said earlier, USB 3.0 doesn't seem to be included in the S912, so you won't get your faster Wifi after all.
Sadly I'm not sure what Dolby Vision really brings.. never seen it in action, so I can't say if it's just marketing or really has any value. Most likely it depends mostly on your TV, and the VPU has little to do with it at all, but as I said, I never seen it, don't know what it's like, nor do I know if it's even supported in any software you can use. Does Kodi support Dolby Vison? Do you need any software to run it at all? Is this software available? Having things on the paper doesn't mean they are actually working.

ropodope wrote:i love the current C2 board of which i am a proud owner. HK seems to constantly improve and update it's OS and driver support so i feel fortunate to have found this company.

That seems to me you never owned anything else than the ODROID C2, and don't seem to have any comparison in matter of quality or capabilities at all.
If that's true, don't you think users, that have many different boards already produced by HardKernel, followed development of boards for several years and have seen pros and cons of many different boards, might actually be able to assess the quallity of a product compared to the previous experiences with the same company?
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:26 am

I have not seen any S912 boxes advertised with USB 3. I have, though, seen "R-BOX Pro" advertised with 3GB of RAM.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby meveric » Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:03 pm

more ram would be nice since i often hit ram limits during compiling
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby nobe » Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:08 pm

if i remember correctly, mali T8xx should support opencl and vulkan
wouldn't those technologies bring some benefits to developers ?

edit
when i want to know a gpu theorical peak performance, i check this site : http://kyokojap.myweb.hinet.net/gpu_gflops/
S905 : 33 Gflops
S912 : 44 Gflops
indeed, doesn't look like much improvement
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:26 pm

nobe wrote:indeed, doesn't look like much improvement

44 - 33 = 11
11 / 33 = 0.33 = 33%

Based on those numbers, the S912 GPU is 33% faster. That is quite a significant performance increase. I should also note that site lists it as "Mali-T830 MP2", the GPU is actually a T830-MP3 according to multiple sources.

nobe wrote:if i remember correctly, mali T8xx should support opencl and vulkan

According to ARM's page, both are supported. This allows it to run software that the C2 can not. Additionally, the GPU supports framebuffer compression and 10bit YUV according to the same source.

A S912 board is definitely something I (and many others) want. Especially if I can also get the features I suggested in this thread. ;)
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby hugolp » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:00 pm

rooted wrote:Even though many (if not most) use the C2 for media it is not designed to be an inexpensive "media box".


My point really was that there needs to be some differentiation between the C line and the X line. If you are going to ask for SATA, USB3 and the rest of the goodies in the C line like some are asking, then:

1. What is the point of having two lines with very similar features?
2. The price of the C line would need to go up, again, making it similar to the X line.

So what I do not get about people asking for all these features in the C line is what is the point? The new features come to the C line much later so it can be sold cheaper. The X line is a bit more expensive and has newer features and usually a more powerful processor. If you want them, get the X line. I find it unrealistic to expect the newer technology at a C line price. Thankfully the thread took a turn into a more realistic view when it started discussing soc's capabilities, so we can discuss what features are realistic for the C line price given the state of the soc market today. But asking for modern features just because you want them is a bit pointless.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby meveric » Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:58 pm

crashoverride wrote:
nobe wrote:indeed, doesn't look like much improvement

44 - 33 = 11
11 / 33 = 0.33 = 33%

Based on those numbers, the S912 GPU is 33% faster. That is quite a significant performance increase. I should also note that site lists it as "Mali-T830 MP2", the GPU is actually a T830-MP3 according to multiple sources.

Just a quick comparison to the XU3/XU4's Exynos 5422 GPU
Mali T628 MP6 with 102.4 Gflops ;)

crashoverride wrote:
nobe wrote:if i remember correctly, mali T8xx should support opencl and vulkan

According to ARM's page, both are supported. This allows it to run software that the C2 can not. Additionally, the GPU supports framebuffer compression and 10bit YUV according to the same source.

ON THEORY! If you check the Mali-Dev homepage you will notice Vulkan drivers do NOT yet exist.
And if ARM tought us one thing, than it's not to expect ANYTHING from them ;)
If it comes be happy about it, but don't wait for it, cause you WILL be disappointed ;)

hugolp wrote:My point really was that there needs to be some differentiation between the C line and the X line

Please be careful with your naming, there is no "X" line anymore, the ODROID X series was discontinued in 2014 and was based on Exynos 4 SoCs
You're talking about XU-Line which currently is based on Exynos 5 SoCs
Since some ODROID X and X2 are still out there and some can still be bought from 3rd party vendors, you should not confuse users that are still interested in these boards.


If you are going to ask for SATA, USB3 and the rest of the goodies in the C line like some are asking, then:

hugolp wrote:So what I do not get about people asking for all these features in the C line is what is the point?

The point is simple, people expect a Ferrari but don't want to pay more than for a "soap box car".

hugolp wrote:The new features come to the C line much later so it can be sold cheaper. The X line is a bit more expensive and has newer features and usually a more powerful processor. If you want them, get the X line. I find it unrealistic to expect the newer technology at a C line price. Thankfully the thread took a turn into a more realistic view when it started discussing soc's capabilities, so we can discuss what features are realistic for the C line price given the state of the soc market today. But asking for modern features just because you want them is a bit pointless.

I agree, currently the C2 can't use it's full potential, due to missing software support and missing drivers.
Adding another board into this environment, won't make things better. It's probably just introduce new "challenges" like how get Dolby Vision to work WITHOUT breaking support for everything else.
And things like this.
The only feature that would be anything interesting for me (personally) would be the OpenGL ES 3.x capabilities. The number of programs that can use this are very limited, but I know that together with this, ARM normally implemets some missing OpenGL ES 1.x and 2.0 functions that are currently missing on all boards except the XU3/XU4.
The new board will not be magically faster, the specs are nearly the same for the C2 and S912, so I doubt anyone will "feel".
If you check @odroid's post you see that they only compare Android up to now, and already said, single core performance is identical to the S905. Means most of the applications will perform EXACTLY the same as on the C2, since there are only a FEW programs that can use ALL cores. (there some that are probably benefitting from it, software decoder for video mostly).
@odroid also said that the GPU drivers are not even working yet.. as usual, ARM Mali drivers are not what you hope they will be, I wouldn't expect too much from a S912.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Sun Aug 14, 2016 12:52 am

meveric wrote:I agree, currently the C2 can't use it's full potential, due to missing software support and missing drivers.

I actually almost made a post once that went "Now that everything on C2 is fixed, can we get a new board to work on?" :lol:

As a developer, I have an entirely different and skewed perspective. I see the only two remaining issues as jpeg/h264 encoding and hardware crypto. I expect S912 will utilize the exact same hardware and features in these areas so progress on S912 is progress on S905 and vice versa.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby meveric » Sun Aug 14, 2016 1:43 am

Well since there's nothing left to fix, what about N64 emulation under Linux? Works fine under 4 years old ODROID X2. Or what something simple such as PS1?
Still no arm64 support, same as many other programs and drivers.
I often encounter an issue where a program is search for "io.h" which does not exist under aarch64, many programs have to be patched.
The GPU drivers on the C2 are still flunky. I can't use my bluetooth adapter from HardKernel which works on any other ODROID but the C2.
I'd say there's still plenty of stuff to do ;)

Edit: Oh, i forgot to mention that tons of programs don't work due to memory management issue 32bit vs 64bit.
Homeworld, Jedi Knight and many others games don't run on the C2 since they were never meant for arm64 requiring tons and tons of rework.
There are tons of hacks that need to be applied just to get the VPU to work correctly. The list goes on and on.
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Check out the Games and Emulators section to find some of my work or check the files in my repository to find the software i build for ODROIDs.
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