Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

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Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby Fred From France » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:21 am

Hi,
It is a right period to write into stone specifications for the next odroid platform, isn't it:


Cortex A72 / 4-8 GB RAM
2-4 x usb 3.1 type C (gen2)
USB OTG, PD, Audio CODEC Power Monitoring Sensor
2 x 1 Gbits with POE/POE+ at least: 802.3af & 802.3at. (802.3bt will be for XU6)
Full GPIO compatible without Shifter Shield addon.
HMDI 2.0a
M.2 /msata /SD slots
Sata-3 slots (2)
Silent cooler
Linux RT full compliant
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby revenco_andrei » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:17 am

This would make a very good server board :). Imagine 10 of those things in a 1U server. In fact... I am sure you would be able to put more than 10.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby muellthos » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:20 am

I wonder which price point one can expect with this feature list ? 300 $? I like the Cloud shell idea. At the same price point as the XU4 I'd love to have:

- 1 SATA or mSATA port
- at least 2 USB 3.1 type C (full aupported gen 2), 1 USB OTG perhaps another USB2.0
- HDMI 2.0a
- Audio Codec
- Full Linux Support with open source drivers (no binary blobs!)
- Android support and GPIO are lesser priority
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Re: Wish List for Next Gen (XU5)

Unread postby mattbot » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:44 pm

These are my only two requirements, beyond what the XU4 is/does:
  • Some A57 cores. A72 would be great, but pricey, I'm sure.
  • Compatible with a standard form-factor (mini-STX?).

Guys, if the SoC doesn't have a built-in SATA controller, then it's probably just going to hang off USB. In that case, you could just plug in a USB -> SATA dongle, at no performance loss, and without jacking up the price for everyone else. And forget NVMe, if the SoC doesn't have PCIe (I'm guessing most don't).

NVMe, SATA, dual-GigE... what you're spec'ing out is really a PC. Just get a J1900 or N3150 board and call it a day.

The only reason I want compatibility with a standard form factor is to have more case selection. Conceptually, it could be done without adding cost.
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Re: Wish List for Next Gen (XU5)

Unread postby mattbot » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:50 pm

revenco_andrei wrote:This would make a very good server board :). Imagine 10 of those things in a 1U server. In fact... I am sure you would be able to put more than 10.
There are more cost-effective & power-efficient ways to reach that density and beyond. The server industry has been moving in that direction for a long time, and has far more streamlined solutions than what could be achieved with a hobbyist-oriented board built around a moble SoC.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby stf144 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 8:28 am

The Samsung Exynos 8890 looks like a nice CPU, plus 4GB of LPDDR4 RAM and SATA would be good for the XU5.
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Re: Wish List for Next Gen (XU5)

Unread postby mattbot » Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:21 am

stf144 wrote:The Samsung Exynos 8890 looks like a nice CPU, plus 4GB of LPDDR4 RAM and SATA would be good for the XU5.
Absolutely. But, if we're being realistic, then I think Exynos 7420 is more likely. The 8890 won't be cheap, and probably won't even be available until Samsung has more than they need for all their phones, tablets, and whatever else they decide to use it for.

Maybe 8890 in the XU6?

BTW, it does sound like the Exynos 7420 includes a PCIe-capable PHY:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9330/exynos-7420-deep-dive/2
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby odroid » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:59 am

What do you guys think about a reasonable/marketable price range with above high-end specifications?
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby stf144 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:37 am

I thought that Hard Kernel might be holding off on using a new processor until the Exynos 8890 and skipping the Exynos 7420, since it continued to use the Exynos 5422 on the Odroid XU4. I did not take into consideration that the supply would be probably be tied up in the production of the Galaxy 6 phone.
odroid wrote:What do you guys think about a reasonable/marketable price range with above high-end specifications?

With the Exynos 7420 or Exynos 8890?
If it was possible to have the Exynos 8890 in the XU5, how much more would it cost over the Exynos 7420?
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby meveric » Fri Jan 15, 2016 4:07 pm

odroid wrote:What do you guys think about a reasonable/marketable price range with above high-end specifications?


Well for "low-cost" I'd say a "Exynos 3 Quad Exynos 3475" could be interesting, just came out last year and has a Mali T720 GPU.. Could be used to put something in between C1 and XU4 I'd guess.

Another one could be the "Exynos 7 Octa 7580 (Exynos 7580)" also a low cost SoC but with more punch then the Exynos 3475. Still I'd say if it would be around the current price of a XU4 that would be fine.

"high-end" Exynos 7 Octa 7420 or Exynos 8 Octa 8890 (Exynos 8890) could be very interesting, but especially the last one probably would cost an arm and a leg ;)
Still considering the prices of previous ODROIDs, I still think $100-150 would be acceptable for a decently fast board.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby stf144 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:55 pm

meveric wrote:"high-end" Exynos 7 Octa 7420 or Exynos 8 Octa 8890 (Exynos 8890) could be very interesting, but especially the last one probably would cost an arm and a leg ;)
Still considering the prices of previous ODROIDs, I still think $100-150 would be acceptable for a decently fast board.

I am looking for something with more computing power and memory than the XU4, and you're probably right that the Exynos 8890 would be too expensive. :(
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby meveric » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:36 pm

stf144 wrote:I am looking for something with more computing power and memory than the XU4, and you're probably right that the Exynos 8890 would be too expensive. :(

The Exynos 7 7420 would already be faster than the XU3/XU4 LPDDR4 memory with 1552 MHz (24.88 GB/s) vs 933 MHz LPDDR3/DDR3 (14.9 GB/s) nearly twice as fast RAM and at least the Samsung S6 that uses the Exynos 7 7420 comes with 4GB RAM :)
Also it's Cortex-A57 and A53 vs Cortex-A15 and A7 (A57 4.76 DMIPS/MHz) vs (A15 4.01 DMIPS/MHz)
If you just calculate the numbers:
"stock" Exynos 7 7420 is: 2.1 GHz A57 + 1.5 GHz A53 means: (2100 * 4.76 * 4) + (1500 * 2.3 * 4) = 39984 + 13800 = 53784
vs XU3/XU4 : 2.0 GHz A15 + 1.4 GHz A7 means (2000 * 4.01 * 4) + (1400 * 1.9 * 4) = 32080 + 10640 = 42720

Considering that the Exynos 5 5422 is also list with stock 1.9 and 1.3 GHz, instead of the 2.0 and 1.4 that we have on our ODROIDs, there could be some room for even more power on the Exynos 7 as well.

So generally the Exynos 7 7420 should be nearly 1.5x as fast as the XU3/XU4 and probably feels a lot faster due to the nearly twice as fast RAM.
The better GPU (Mali T720MP8 vs MaliT628MP6) should also improve gaming a lot.

Steps in ARMs world are not "that big" at the moment. The Exynos M1 (Exynos 8) could be very interesting in the future with everything at 64bit (even memory 64bit dial channel) could really speed a few things up.. But the price is way too high right now. Exynos 7 is probably the best shot at the moment.. Exynos 8 needs a year or two to settle in market.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby stf144 » Sat Jan 16, 2016 2:52 am

meveric wrote:Exynos 8 needs a year or two to settle in market.

Ah, so there is a "settling time" before it winds up in a single board computer.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby meveric » Sat Jan 16, 2016 5:45 am

In order to not cost an arm and a leg, I'd say so.. :D
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby crashoverride » Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:59 am

The AMD Opteron A1100 series is the closest to what is being asked for. Additionally, the A1100 supports ECC memory making them suitable for server application.
http://www.amd.com/en-us/products/server/opteron-a-series

There is going to be a HuskyBoard product made by CircuitCo (the makers of BeagleBone). Nobody is talking prices yet. One rumour I heard was the SoC alone costs $150. So what price range should be expected for this type of product?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM0pjUEVSxY
@5m:37s - "For the range of $500 to $1,000 dollars"

Currently, there are no ARM SoCs I know of that meet the specifications in the original post. A board that crams (2) GB Ethernet and (2) SATA over USB3 could be made, but the performance would be lacking as there are no SoCs with (6) USB 3.0 ports [(2) GB Ethernet, (2) SATA, (2) free/available].
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby stf144 » Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:36 am

Looking at the description for the AMD Opteron A1100 series in the product brief:
“64-bit ARM®- based AMD Opteron processors meet demanding performance requirements, provide energy efficient solutions and enable cost savings for scale-out cloud datacenter, storage and networking infrastructure.”
The Opteron seems to be designed just for data storage and networking since there is no built in multimedia capability (a GPU and video engine). I think that there would be quite a few people, myself included that want to built in multimedia capability.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby stf144 » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:50 am

Revised list for XU5:
- Exynos 7420
- 4GB of LPDDR4 RAM
- eMMC/micro SDXC
- 1 or 2 SATA (USB 3.0 to SATA bridge) and 5V power connectors
- 4 USB 2.0 and 2 USB 3.0 connectors
- HDMI
- DisplayPort
- 1 or 2 Gb Ethernet ports (USB 3.0 to Ethernet bridge)
- WiFi and Bluetooth
- audio codec chip
- Lithium battery support
- IO expansion connectors
- UART connector
- power button

I came up with a revised and more detailed list for a Odroid XU5. The 7420 would make a good CPU and hopefully it is “settled in the market” enough that it will be affordable. See meveric's post for details of the 7420's performance. I don't know the how many USB ports the 7420 has built in, so I will assume that it is the same as the 5422. So, a USB hub chip could be added to the 1 USB 2.0 port so there would be 4 USB 2.0 host port connectors. The 5422 has 2 USB 3.0 ports and on the XU4 one port goes to a USB to Ethernet bridge chip, and the other goes to a USB 3.0 hub chip. So if 2 hub ports are used on the XU5 for USB 3.0 host connectors, then that leaves 2 ports for an additional USB to Ethernet bridge and a USB to SATA bridge, or 2 USB to SATA bridges. There is the possibility that there could be 2 Ethernet and SATA ports if there is only 1 USB 3.0 host connector. Of course the more Ethernet and SATA ports that are added, the more the board will cost. I only need 1 Ethernet port and 1 SATA port, however the other possibilities are included since there are others who would want more. I do not know if the 7420 has a built in audio codec, so one could be added if it did not have one built in. Wireless networking and lithium battery support could also be added. Also, it would be nice if their was a battery holder on the board for the RTC battery and a large enough CPU heat sink that a fan is not needed. For myself, I would say that $125 to $150 is my price range. Hopefully that is enough for most of the features that are listed. If the cost is high enough, it might be a good idea to have two boards like the XU3. There could be a Odroid XU5, and a XU5 lite with fewer features and lower cost.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby stmicro » Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:02 pm

If the price is near $150, they will fail in this market since x86 boards are better.
I believe the Xu4 is still one of the highest performance SBC lists.
Look at this benchmark comparison. "META PERFORMANCE PER DOLLAR" looks very interesting.
http://openbenchmarking.org/result/1601 ... 601134GA15

2Ghz 64bit 4-core CPU with 2GB RAM without cooling fan at $40 is a right way to go perhaps.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby crashoverride » Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:43 pm

stmicro wrote:If the price is near $150, they will fail in this market since x86 boards are better.

The XU4 is at the upper price limit for me. Anything above that and I prefer a PC. Not mentioned in any charts thus far is TCO: total cost of ownership. ARM SoC boards require me to spend a great deal of time "fixing things" or "working around things" when used in a role that a PC would perform. I can get a PC equivalent that would outperform the specs listed in this thread for $75 (CPU + motherboard).

Where ARM boards shine is in doing non-PC things; particular media playback and portability. Its not really practical to run a PC off a battery. Nor is it practical to carry a PC around in your pocket. I can do both with the XU4. What gives the XU4 value above its cost is the amount of performance in the form factor it has. Adding a ton of ports detracts on both counts as all the peripherals will under perform on USB buses. In fact, the one change I would make to the current XU4 is to put the GB ethernet on the hub and provide a single dedicated USB3 line with the free port. (Its rare that I am anywhere near saturating the ethernet, so most of the time the bandwidth is wasted. Moving the hub there would allow me to utilize it)

From my experience, I feel we have not even scratched the surface of what XU4 can achieve. Things like G2D and the hardware rotater/scaler remain unused. The main thing holding it back is the kernel and GPU driver situation. I don't think that throwing a new Exynos onto a board is going to provide much advantage until these issues are resolved.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby streetboy » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:46 pm

I agree with stmicro and crashoverride. Many people don't want to pay more than $100 to play with an ARM SBC.
Lower the price of XU4 and guarantee additional two years of life time and keep supporting the XU4 platform software more intensively instead of making a new generation.
But I also need a U3-like performance SBC based on Arm-V8 with the C1+ formfactor at $40 too. :mrgreen:
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby meveric » Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:27 pm

crashoverride wrote:From my experience, I feel we have not even scratched the surface of what XU4 can achieve. Things like G2D and the hardware rotater/scaler remain unused. The main thing holding it back is the kernel and GPU driver situation. I don't think that throwing a new Exynos onto a board is going to provide much advantage until these issues are resolved.

It's true, the XU3/XU4 has a lot of unused potential, and the bugs with the Kernel and GPU drivers are a serious show stopper.
But a new Exynos SoC "could" solve that issue. There were a lot of patches for Exynos 7 SoCs in the past to the Linux Kernel, chance is that it's working much better.

We've already seen, that it CAN work better. On the Exynos 4 boards we have none of the issues of the XU4. No blackscreen, ne random freezes, no cut-up display when a program changes resolution.
So it can work. Question is, if the Exynos 7 SoCs can do the same or if they are as much messed up as the Exynos 5 code.

streetboy wrote:I agree with stmicro and crashoverride. Many people don't want to pay more than $100 to play with an ARM SBC.

Yeah, probably the same people that buy a new iPhone for $800 every year ;)
streetboy wrote:Lower the price of XU4 and guarantee additional two years of life time and keep supporting the XU4 platform software more intensively instead of making a new generation.

The XU4 already had a serious price drop. The original XU3 cost $179 compared to the now $74 of the XU4. If that's not a price drop I really don't know.
streetboy wrote:But I also need a U3-like performance SBC based on Arm-V8 with the C1+ formfactor at $40 too. :mrgreen:

I rather have a SBC that has the U3 stability and performance. It doesn't matter if on the paper a board has the same or even better performance, if in the end it has as many issues as the C1, then I wouldn't be able to enjoy it.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby mattbot » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:31 am

streetboy wrote:keep supporting the XU4 platform software more intensively instead of making a new generation.
But I also need a U3-like performance SBC based on Arm-V8 with the C1+ formfactor at $40 too. :mrgreen:
I think your second point is right on. In a world with Pine64 (and many others soon to follow), people are going to expect ARMv8-A (i.e. 64-bit). To remain competitive, I think XU5 needs something with A57's. C2 can go with A53's (since anything with A35's would probably cost too much).
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby mattbot » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:37 am

crashoverride wrote:I can get a PC equivalent that would outperform the specs listed in this thread for $75 (CPU + motherboard).
But once you add RAM, storage, case, and power supply, the PC equivalent starts getting expensive awfully fast.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby Scarpia » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:45 am

Like streetboy, I agree with stmicro and crashoverride that the XU4 has an exceptional offering for those of us who looked at 20 different boards thinking "I want a compact board that will run off a battery with as good performance as I can get with the <$100 in my budget". Anything above $100 and you're instantly removed from next year's "Best value single-board computers under $100" articles (admit it, you've all read them!) AND at that price range you're now struggling to compete with a bunch of powerful but power-hungry PC boards.

In this view, the ODROID XU5 should be more "XU4s" and less XUUltimate". In other words, stability, usability, flexibility - the best bang for the buck on the most mature platform:

  • keep the form factor (either that or follow a standard like mattbot suggested, for case compatibility etc.)
  • stick to the price point
  • upgrade the chip if it means more bang for the buck or better stability / support
  • probably upgrade the RAM since RAM prices are constantly dropping and it's a fair bet that this will be cost neutral
  • maybe support a wider range of power options -- one of the features I like about the new DragonBoard 410c is that it takes anywhere from 6.5V to 18V. This could make shopping for batteries a whole lot easier
  • instead of putting everything on the board, release a couple of high quality shields/add-ons, letting the community vote on what products they would most like to see; maybe a HiFi shield for the XU5 would be in order? Maybe a shield solution for DisplayPort? An ODROID-approved powered USB3 hub with one PSU for the XU5 & hub? Perhaps an 'Arduino base shield' with all the connectors needed to stack Arduino shields on top?

Basically, try to keep true to the XU4's existing position in the market and build on top of that. What are the things everyone needs? Stability, power to the board and its peripherals, connectivity, sound, and picture.
If we simply took a day to list the top 15 hardware-related questions or difficulties people experience in those areas when working with the XU4, and Hardkernel then tried to solve at least 10 with the design of the XU5, I'd wager most of us would be more than happy with the result.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby mattbot » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:49 am

odroid wrote:What do you guys think about a reasonable/marketable price range with above high-end specifications?
Depends on the specs. There might be something to be said for spec'ing out "the best ARM board you can buy for under $100", though.

In general, competing too much with PCs is going to be treacherous. And the increased price from adding too many features is going to turn off more buyers than you'll attract with the added features. So, I'd focus more on the competition and on what features (that make sense) you can cheaply add to differentiate. But don't overlook the possibility of a couple relatively expensive features that are huge differentiaters (e.g. PCIe, SATA, DisplayPort, M.2, etc.).

Please don't add SATA, if it's just sitting on USB 3.0. But if you use a SoC with PCIe, then it'd be nice either to add a PCIe slot or integrate a South Bridge with SATA and other features. Or maybe just expose it as M.2, if that could somehow work?
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby stf144 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:19 am

Please don't add SATA, if it's just sitting on USB 3.0. But if you use a SoC with PCIe, then it'd be nice either to add a PCIe slot or integrate a South Bridge with SATA and other features. Or maybe just expose it as M.2, if that could somehow work?

The SoC's that are used in single board computers were designed to be used in smartphones, so interfaces like SATA and Ethernet are usually not included. I looked at a reverse-engineered block diagram of the Exynos 7420 and there are two PCIe interfaces, but they are intended for WiFi and cellular data.
Last edited by stf144 on Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby crashoverride » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:12 am

mattbot wrote:But once you add RAM, storage, case, and power supply, the PC equivalent starts getting expensive awfully fast.

As I mentioned, its about TCO. A $200 PC is much cheaper to own over its lifetime than a $200 ARM Soc. I don't have to "fix the kernel" or backport drivers before I can use a PC for what I intend. I also do not have to port, modify or maintain my own branch of 3rd party software: its all designed to work on x86-64 "out of the box" (downloaded from the internet)(time is money!). So if I just want a cheap server, then x86-64 can't be beat on performance or TCO.

stf144 wrote:The SoC's that are used in single board computers were designed to be used in smartphones

The Amlogic S805 in Odroid C1 is designed for set top boxes (OTT). Amlogic also have a line of chips marketed at tablets/phones. In SoCs designed for OTT, you will typically find on chip ethernet and SATA (Allwinner A20, Marvell Armada 1500 Ultra) built in. I don't think the S905 has SATA though.

Whether I would be excited or not about a XU5 with Exynos 7420 depends entirely on the kernel/driver situation with it. If it just inherits the same issues we have today with Exynos 5, then I would prefer a cheaper C2. If Samsung release a datasheet for the Exynos 7420, then I would be more swayed by it. It it either needs *LINUX* (not Android) support that works, or they need to provide the information so I can fix what I need! ;)
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby stf144 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:18 am

The Amlogic S805 in Odroid C1 is designed for set top boxes (OTT). Amlogic also have a line of chips marketed at tablets/phones. In SoCs designed for OTT, you will typically find on chip ethernet and SATA (Allwinner A20, Marvell Armada 1500 Ultra) built in. I don't think the S905 has SATA though.

Ok, I stand corrected on that.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby crashoverride » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:33 am

Actually, I will go ahead and state that the product I am most anticipating is the rumoured C2! I also hope there is a "C2 Pro" with the big-boy Mali-T830 GPU in it (Amlogic S912).
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby XeoSal » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:36 am

crashoverride wrote:Actually, I will go ahead and state that the product I am most anticipating is the rumoured C2! I also hope there is a "C2 Pro" with the big-boy Mali-T830 GPU in it (Amlogic S912).

I am really interested for such a device, it has a lot of features and powerful hardware yet the SOC won't cost you much, it's fabulous. :)
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby stf144 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:21 am

I saw a list of some of the features of the Amlogic S912, and they look good.
http://www.elezine.com/2015/11/amlogic-s912-soc-roadmap-development-usb-3-1-sampling-2016-q1/
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby alpha_one_x86 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:08 pm

For me:
  • Cortex A72+35 / 2-4-8 GB RAM (best performance/price)
  • Ethernet 100Mbps is correct for me, but with packet offloading (tcp, segmentation, ...)
  • MicroSD
  • Silent cooler
  • Full Linux Support with open source drivers (no binary blobs!)
  • Smallest and lower power usage possible
I don't need:
  • Sata
  • Usb
  • Hdmi
  • GPU

To ban: Exynos 5433, Exynos 7 Octa 7580, only LITTLE then in order cpu, will be very slow to access to the main memory
To use: Exynos 7 Octa 7420, Exynos 8 Octa 8890, 14 nm, big.LITTLE (very important to have boost on demand), LPDDR4 (lower power, and better performance, bonus for 8890 for the 64-bit dual-channel)

Less than 70$, if pine64 I think it's possible. If it's interesting I will buy directly 100 or 200 units.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby stf144 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:49 am

Here is some more information about the Amlogic S912 as well as the Amlogic S905 and Amlogic S905X
http://www.cnx-software.com/2015/12/17/amlogic-s905m-and-s912-processors-to-support-4k-vp9-hdmi-2-0a-built-in-dac-and-more/#comment-521437
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby mattbot » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:15 am

stf144 wrote:I looked at a reverse-engineered block diagram of the Exynos 7420 and there are two PCIe interfaces, but they are intended for WiFi and cellular data.
Of course they were intended for something else, but isn't the beauty of PCIe that you can use it for what you want?
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby mattbot » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:20 am

stf144 wrote:Here is some more information about the Amlogic S912 as well as the Amlogic S905 and Amlogic S905X
A53's only. :(

I'd take 4x A57's over 8x A53's any day. Heck, I'd take 4x A53 @ 2.0 GHz over 8x A53 @ 1.5 GHz. I really have no use for 8 cores of the same type & speed.

Other than that, the S912 looks pretty good.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby crashoverride » Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:31 pm

mattbot wrote: I really have no use for 8 cores of the same type & speed.

This is actually a problem currently faced by XU4 and any other big.LITTLE processor: Linux does NOT have a way to make it work. Currently it relies on patches from ARM. These patches were rejected by mainline because they broke other systems. Last I heard, Linux is working on its own strategy for it.

My preference would be for homogeneous cores that could be dynamically enabled/disabled. This combined with dynamic frequency scaling would yield the best real world results for typical use cases of a XU4 or future XU5. Searching the internet will reveal many slides and discussions about scheduling difficulties and trade-offs with big.LITTLE.

While I would like to say "I will take 6 to 8 A53's", the reality of the situation is "I will take whatever is given". :lol:
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby alpha_one_x86 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 10:09 pm

crashoverride wrote:This is actually a problem currently faced by XU4 and any other big.LITTLE processor: Linux does NOT have a way to make it work. Currently it relies on patches from ARM.

Interesting.

crashoverride wrote:My preference would be for homogeneous cores that could be dynamically enabled/disabled.

Me too like Xeon Phi, but only if is out of order.
crashoverride wrote:about scheduling difficulties and trade-offs with big.LITTLE.

It's not a problem in my case I have vm binded by cpu.

Exynos 7 Octa 7580 (Exynos 7580) with LDDR4 and in 14 nm, yes, according, but don't exists.
The alternative is A64 for 4$ Soc, then it's pine64 15$, as c1+ replacement. Not as XU4 replacement.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby indium » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:48 am

crashoverride wrote:The AMD Opteron A1100 series is the closest to what is being asked for. Additionally, the A1100 supports ECC memory making them suitable for server application.
http://www.amd.com/en-us/products/server/opteron-a-series

There is going to be a HuskyBoard product made by CircuitCo (the makers of BeagleBone). Nobody is talking prices yet. One rumour I heard was the SoC alone costs $150. So what price range should be expected for this type of product?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM0pjUEVSxY
@5m:37s - "For the range of $500 to $1,000 dollars"

Currently, there are no ARM SoCs I know of that meet the specifications in the original post. A board that crams (2) GB Ethernet and (2) SATA over USB3 could be made, but the performance would be lacking as there are no SoCs with (6) USB 3.0 ports [(2) GB Ethernet, (2) SATA, (2) free/available].

I read at Anandtech recently a crushing critics about this SoC. In short - it sucks turbulently. The 2 main fails - it costs too much for what it is able to do, and it fails on power saving what apparently was expected from it.
I saw a server solution exists, based on this chip. It has 8 cores (a57) somewhat 16GB of ram, TB of disk... And it costs 2500 bucks! Here is the price class for the server-range arm for those here who want 100500 GB of ram and a72+a35 etc. for 40 $... I think it's not that price, the public here would expect, right? And yet - it has 2 10GbE ports! xD
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby indium » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:54 am

stmicro wrote:If the price is near $150, they will fail in this market since x86 boards are better.
I believe the Xu4 is still one of the highest performance SBC lists.
Look at this benchmark comparison. "META PERFORMANCE PER DOLLAR" looks very interesting.
http://openbenchmarking.org/result/1601 ... 601134GA15

2Ghz 64bit 4-core CPU with 2GB RAM without cooling fan at $40 is a right way to go perhaps.

Cool bench, thanks! Interstingly to note how Odroid-C1+ smokes RPi 2 and clones. Considerably I'd say. The brute force of frequency of the straighforward a5 core wins over all that sophisticated fanciness of a7. As expected.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby indium » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:20 am

Personally, since my use of such boards lays in trying of system programming, for me is important to have a cheap machine with the latest architectural thingies. Like armv8 availability. Never mind it be the slow as hell a53, it still expose that aarch64, good. The same for other things - big.LITTLE for example, it's important to have an affordable solution with this. XU4 here apparently is the best one. But of course my interests are far away from being representative, Kodi guys are of those. xD So if Hardkernel would release something 64-bit arm but more mature and offering than pine64 with its extremely cut-off profile, but still with pretty affordable price as is for xu4 and c1+, I wouldn't mind it. :D But it would be rather c2 than xu5. As for the last, the high end SBC I mean, for my use it would be just a whim. xD If to say honest. Just becuase it's cool to have a big one in this crowd.) But if to express what it should look like, then I am not that demanding to require deca core cortex-a72, cortex-a35 cluster. it's just out of context, really, as it's already said here, SBC market should wait somewhat untill pricy smartphone/tablet soc's become feasible for it. so, somewhat a57-ish from samsung would be great. I don't have an illusion about its price being less than 100$. actually I know there is such a board, some board with 7th exynos, it costs around 500-600$.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby crashoverride » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:47 am

indium wrote:I read at Anandtech recently a crushing critics about this SoC.

I don't think any of the reviews were fair. They failed to account for it having (2) X 10Gb Ethernet, (8) X SATA 3, and (8) X PCIe Gen 3 lanes. Additionally, AMD does not "cripple" their chips by disabling instruction sets as Intel does with Atom (the missing instructions are usually related to enhanced hardware VM acceleration). Those that the Opteron is targeted at know the value of it and that its an Intel Xeon competitor, not an Atom competitor. (Atom server is DDR3, not DDR4. Its PCIe 2, not PCIe 3. (6) SATA ports, not (8). (4) 2.5GB Ethernet, not (2) 10Gb. Supports 64GB ram, not 128GB).

That being said, high end server boards also require high end support. That add a significant amount to final product cost. There needs to be support personnel available 24/7 and 24hr issue turnaround. Its a huge amount of overhead unless you are selling (or plan to sell) very high volumes of products.

Fortunately for everyone, I have absolutely no influence over any decisions HK makes! :D

I am a customer and I view this thread as a customer feedback survey. My feedback is that I personally am interested in higher performing, low cost boards and small form factors. I also primarily do graphics work, so GPU is a major consideration for products I intend to use (needs to support Vulkan API). Additionally, hardware video acceleration is very important to me too (its implied that I need the video acceleration to work seamlessly with the 3D acceleration). Bonus points are awarded for hardware 2D vector acceleration (instrumentation display). This is why a high end server board is not of much interest to me. They do not fit my criteria.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby rooted » Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:23 am

Vulkan would be awesome.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby Matoking » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:50 am

4 GB of RAM is a must, since I keep running out of the 2 GB I have and swapping really isn't cutting it.
Keep the Gigabit Ethernet, USB 3.0 and HDMI ports and XU4 eMMC module compatibility.
Similar form factor, since I'd like to reuse the accessories I've already bought, plus there's this metallic case I'd love to buy for a new board if it fits.
And as usual, it ought to be faster than the previous board.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby mattbot » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:51 am

crashoverride wrote:
mattbot wrote: I really have no use for 8 cores of the same type & speed.
My preference would be for homogeneous cores that could be dynamically enabled/disabled.
You make a very sound and reasonable case. I didn't know anything about Big.little support.

What I originally typed is that I have no use for 8 cores (reacting to S912's 8x A53 @ 1.5 GHz vs S905's 4x A53 @ 2.0 GHz). Then, I thought "gee, maybe a 4.4 Big.little would be useful", so I reworded my statement as you saw. Most of my stuff is single-threaded, and I don't expect to have many/any workloads that scale past 4 cores.

So, I'll go back to my main point: I'd prefer 4 faster cores over 8 slower ones. Period.

Even if it means using a Big.little SoC and statically disabling the 4 slower cores, I'd do that.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby mattbot » Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:58 am

indium wrote:
stmicro wrote:Look at this benchmark comparison. "META PERFORMANCE PER DOLLAR" looks very interesting.
http://openbenchmarking.org/result/1601 ... 601134GA15

2Ghz 64bit 4-core CPU with 2GB RAM without cooling fan at $40 is a right way to go perhaps.

Cool bench, thanks! Interstingly to note how Odroid-C1+ smokes RPi 2 and clones. Considerably I'd say. The brute force of frequency of the straighforward a5 core wins over all that sophisticated fanciness of a7. As expected.
As you say, the results were predictable if one just scales the instructions-per-clock of both cores by the respective clock frequencies (and I did just that, when Pi 2.0 was released). I'm sure C1 also gets a benefit from faster RAM and eMMC support.

I have a Pi model B and the I/O performance is horrendous, partly because its flash card reader is connected via USB 2.0. So, fast I/O (like native eMMC support) is a key selling point, for me.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby mattbot » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:05 pm

Matoking wrote:plus there's this metallic case
That is nice.

I wouldn't mind something like that, but I think a standard form factor (mini-STX?) would be ideal. That way, those of us who want passive cooling can probably find a case with enough space for a giant heatsink & ventilation.
Last edited by mattbot on Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby crossover » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:06 pm

S912's 8x A53 looks like Little.Little at 1.5Ghz. It is very weird. So I also prefer the S905's 4x A53 at 2.Ghz.

Anyway, is there any benchmark comparison between S805 vs S905 ? Is the ARM Cortex-A53 64bit V8 architecture showing any performance quantum jumping in the real world?
I am really curious the results of Dhrystone2 and DP-Whetstone benchmarks among S805 vs S905 vs Exynos5422 vs Rpi2.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby mattbot » Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:18 pm

crossover wrote:S912's 8x A53 looks like Little.Little at 1.5Ghz. It is very weird. So I also prefer the S905's 4x A53 at 2.Ghz.
Except the S905 is worse in several areas I care about. If I could just disable one cluster on the S912 and clock the chip up to 2.0 GHz, that would be cool.

Anyway, is there any benchmark comparison between S805 vs S905 ? Is the ARM Cortex-A53 64bit V8 architecture showing any performance quantum jumping in the real world?
Well... I am pretty keen on using ARMv8-A. I think it'd be nice to standardize on it, for all my ARM systems, so that I have binary compatibility between them. I'd rather not have to juggle x86-64, ARMv7, and ARMv8. Just two is bad enough.

In fact, I'm still occasionally using an old 32-bit Pentium M laptop. But I'll retire that, at some point.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby jgpallero » Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:16 am

odroid wrote:What do you guys think about a reasonable/marketable price range with above high-end specifications?


I could pay $100-$115 or maybe $150, but in this last case the SoC should have at least 4 GB RAM and come with Cortex A72
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby lizardmech » Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:31 am

odroid wrote:What do you guys think about a reasonable/marketable price range with above high-end specifications?

$200 USD would be ok. Nvidia sell their tegra boards for $299 which is too much considering they only offer 12 month old SoCs.

Have you considered making an odriod board with the SoC on a riser like the nvidia jetson tx1? It would be easier to offer different ram combinations or adopt new SoCs rapidly in the future. People could make special boards if they needed a strange form factor or features then plug the odroid SoC module in.
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