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mctom
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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by mctom »

Yeah, this should work. AVRs have 10-bit ADCs if I remember correctly, so acquisition precision isn't a problem.
However this code appears to assume that only one switch is operated at the same time. This explains why non-perfect resistor values are suitable.

It is possible to derive a resistive network that would sense all 6 buttons at the same time. The 6 most significant bits of ADC result would indicate which buttons are pressed.
A very interesting problem for genetic algorithm to solve...
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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by zyssai »

As you say there's probably something to do to manage multiple press.
Something like 100Ohm for button1, 1KOhm for button2, 5KOhm for button3, 10KOhm for button4, etc..

This way if button 1 and 3 are pressed, this would give 5100 Ohm so just need to find good values to use, or I am wrong?

I have a huge save to do :lol:
Already removed pads from IC, need to straighten IC pins, and have a fun time with PCB :)

Image

Just need to add soldermask before put IC in place.
Image
Last edited by zyssai on Fri Jan 26, 2024 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by mctom »

zyssai wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:04 pm
As you say there's probably something to do to manage multiple press.
Something like 100Ohm for button1, 1KOhm for button2, 5KOhm for button3, 10KOhm for button4, etc..

This way if button 1 and 3 are pressed, this would give 5100 Ohm so just need to find good values to use, or I am wrong?
That is close to the truth. Each resistor must have 2x higher value than the previous.
A common example is 7k5, 15k, 30k, 60k, 120k, 240k. Only 60k is non-standard but can be built from 2x30k.
Using such set of resistors, you are sure that every combination of resistances gives a unique result.

I said it's an interesting problem for genetic algorithm to crack because there are more factors to this problem, like ADC accuracy parameters, and resistor tolerances.
I tried to calculate it quickly for the sake of this conversation but I only managed to prove it is possible, without reaching an answer.
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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by mad_ady »

Hardkernel's 3.5" lcd has 4 buttons wired into the ADC. It worked reasonably well, except, rarely one button would trigger briefly (it read 0 resistance). So, test you don't get ghost readings.

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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by mctom »

Ha, indeed. And this one wouldn't support more than one button at the same time.

Maybe this isn't such a common scenario to worry about...
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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by L67GS »

zyssai wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2024 3:31 pm
I never thought to use something as simple as this.
Is this reliable? Someone tested it?

Image

I'm not wondering about the code, just the mathematic part can possibly be simplified with some select case function.
Actually, yes, I've done this with PIC micros before. Also, this is the way almost all automobile steering wheel radio controls work. It goes without saying that no resistors can add up to another or accidents can happen. This idea was used in automobiles as early as the 1990's that I've seen first hand, possibly earlier.
If you study the diagram it's really just a voltage divider.
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Re: Off Topic Banter

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I just remembered a similar principle is used in motorbikes, for detecting which gear is engaged.
Many years ago I designed a board someone asked me for. It was meant to fool the engine computer into thinking it's working on a different gear.
A part of performance tuning I believe...

Clearly in this case there is no risk of engaging two gears at the same time.
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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by mctom »

OK I sat with a spreadsheet and couldn't figure it out, so must be impossible then :D

@zyssai, wait until you learn how to use I2C, and thousands of components you can connect to it.
Like GPIO expander. :)

By the way I was just contracted to develop a mammoth PCB (300x300mm, 8 layers) with close to 200 inputs and outputs of different kinds, so I'll be using a lot of these :D
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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by L67GS »

mctom wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2024 10:25 pm
I just remembered a similar principle is used in motorbikes, for detecting which gear is engaged.
Many years ago I designed a board someone asked me for. It was meant to fool the engine computer into thinking it's working on a different gear.
A part of performance tuning I believe...

Clearly in this case there is no risk of engaging two gears at the same time.
That's interesting, I didn't know about that mainstream application of that little trick. GM automobiles use a different approach, in their PRNDL switches for automatic transmissions. It's more like binary, years ago I programmed a microcontroller to switch the wshift solenoids based on the position of the PRNDL so an automatic transmission could be shifted directly without the use of a PCM or TCM.
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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by zyssai »

Oh I didn't thought it would start a such discussion, thanks for all these useful informations.

I have not planned to work on it but who knows? :)

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Re: Off Topic Banter

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I've spent a good 15 minutes analyzing this weird encoding, and it has an interesting property.
7 states could have been encoded in 3 bits, but they used four.
It looks like they also defined unique transition states in between switch positions, when it's not certain in what order contacts may engage and disengage.
That requires another 6 state codes, thus 4 bit output in total. This information could have been used by the computer to "expect" what the next state might be and prepare something in advance.
If the computer wasn't too sophisticated, it could have helped simplify its internal state machine.

@L67GS, so I understand you've made a manual, sequential gearbox control?

EDIT: The resistive network for detecting gears in a motorbike was present in all Japanese bikes that needed it, I believe.
In our circles we rode only the big four brands, Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda and Kawasaki.
My first bike, Suzuki GN250, had gear indicator, but I can't remember how it worked... No recollection of any wiring for this purpose or anything, even though I took it apart to bare frame and rebuilt it myself.
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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by zyssai »

I posted the following on the Linux help topic unfortunately, so I move it here, it makes more sense.

I actually cannot manage to program an Attiny204 with UPDI.
It worked one time, but I cannot get it work again even with a fresh chip.

I'm using a UNO R3 with jtag2updi flash, it seems to do the job, but no way to get communication with the chip.
I wiring GND, 5V to VCC chip, and PD6 to UPDI pin with a 470Ohm resistor.

Code: Select all

avrdude: Version 6.3-20201216
         Copyright (c) 2000-2005 Brian Dean, http://www.bdmicro.com/
         Copyright (c) 2007-2014 Joerg Wunsch

         System wide configuration file is "/home/zyssai/.arduino15/packages/megaTinyCore/hardware/megaavr/2.6.10/avrdude.conf"
         User configuration file is "/home/zyssai/.avrduderc"
avrdude: warning at /home/zyssai/.avrduderc:2: programmer jtag2updi overwrites previous definition /home/zyssai/.arduino15/packages/megaTinyCore/hardware/megaavr/2.6.10/avrdude.conf:1629.

         Using Port                    : /dev/ttyACM0
         Using Programmer              : jtag2updi
         Overriding Baud Rate          : 115200
avrdude: jtagmkII_getsync(): sign-on command: status -1
JTAG ICE mkII sign-on message:
Communications protocol version: 1
M_MCU:
  boot-loader FW version:        1
  firmware version:              6.00
  hardware version:              1
S_MCU:
  boot-loader FW version:        1
  firmware version:              6.00
  hardware version:              1
Serial number:                   00:00:00:00:00:00
Device ID:                       JTAGICE mkII
         AVR Part                      : ATtiny204
         Chip Erase delay              : 0 us
         PAGEL                         : P00
         BS2                           : P00
         RESET disposition             : dedicated
         RETRY pulse                   : SCK
         serial program mode           : yes
         parallel program mode         : yes
         Timeout                       : 0
         StabDelay                     : 0
         CmdexeDelay                   : 0
         SyncLoops                     : 0
         ByteDelay                     : 0
         PollIndex                     : 0
         PollValue                     : 0x00
         Memory Detail                 :

                                  Block Poll               Page                       Polled
           Memory Type Mode Delay Size  Indx Paged  Size   Size #Pages MinW  MaxW   ReadBack
           ----------- ---- ----- ----- ---- ------ ------ ---- ------ ----- ----- ---------
           signature      0     0     0    0 no          3    0      0     0     0 0x00 0x00
           prodsig        0     0     0    0 no         61   61      0     0     0 0x00 0x00
           fuses          0     0     0    0 no          9   10      0     0     0 0x00 0x00
           fuse0          0     0     0    0 no          1    0      0     0     0 0x00 0x00
           fuse1          0     0     0    0 no          1    0      0     0     0 0x00 0x00
           fuse2          0     0     0    0 no          1    0      0     0     0 0x00 0x00
           fuse4          0     0     0    0 no          1    0      0     0     0 0x00 0x00
           fuse5          0     0     0    0 no          1    0      0     0     0 0x00 0x00
           fuse6          0     0     0    0 no          1    0      0     0     0 0x00 0x00
           fuse7          0     0     0    0 no          1    0      0     0     0 0x00 0x00
           fuse8          0     0     0    0 no          1    0      0     0     0 0x00 0x00
           lock           0     0     0    0 no          1    0      0     0     0 0x00 0x00
           data           0     0     0    0 no          0    0      0     0     0 0x00 0x00
           usersig        0     0     0    0 no         32   32      0     0     0 0x00 0x00
           flash          0     0     0    0 no       2048   64      0     0     0 0x00 0x00
           eeprom         0     0     0    0 no         64   32      0     0     0 0x00 0x00

         Programmer Type : JTAGMKII_PDI
         Description     : JTAGv2 to UPDI bridge
         M_MCU hardware version: 1
         M_MCU firmware version: 6.00
         S_MCU hardware version: 1
         S_MCU firmware version: 6.00
         Serial number:          00:00:00:00:00:00
         Vtarget         : 5.0 V

avrdude: jtagmkII_initialize(): Cannot locate "flash" and "boot" memories in description
avrdude: AVR device initialized and ready to accept instructions

Reading | avrdude: jtagmkII_program_enable(): bad response to enter progmode command: RSP_ILLEGAL_MCU_STATE
avrdude: jtagmkII_program_enable(): bad response to enter progmode command: RSP_NO_TARGET_POWER
avrdude: jtagmkII_read_byte(): bad response to read memory command: RSP_NO_TARGET_POWER
avr_read(): error reading address 0x0000
    read operation not supported for memory "signature"
avrdude: error reading signature data for part "ATtiny204", rc=-2
avrdude: error reading signature data, rc=-2
avrdude: jtagmkII_program_disable(): bad response to leave progmode command: RSP_NO_TARGET_POWER

avrdude done.  Thank you.

Failed programming: uploading error: exit status 1
I tried even with a lowered baud rate but same error.

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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by mctom »

So I assume you've seen this page already?
https://github.com/ElTangas/jtag2updi

It has a troubleshooting section, some of what you have already tried.

I'm out of ideas really. Other than checking out the UPDI wire with a scope..
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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by zyssai »

mctom wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2024 10:54 pm
So I assume you've seen this page already?
https://github.com/ElTangas/jtag2updi

It has a troubleshooting section, some of what you have already tried.

I'm out of ideas really. Other than checking out the UPDI wire with a scope..
Thanks mctom. Yes this is the code I used for my Uno.
I already checked troubleshooting but not really helped unfortunately.

but I just thought about a thing, I did not used the same computer for upload. I will try with the other one, who knows?

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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by zyssai »

Other computer (windows) does the same as Linux.

Is there a possibility I need to program at 12V level?
I read that a pin can be dedicated to RESET pin only, and to access UPDI mode it is necessary to program at 12V (this is not an Attiny204 documentation, I need to check datasheet of it).
This will be hard with my UNO :lol:

Edit: I just found that I can try with a FR232RL USB adapter, hope it will work.

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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by mctom »

12V pulse is required to access UPDI mode only if your AVR target has a shared RESET/UPDI/GPIO pin. Looks like AtTiny204 is one of them.
Two fuse bits can disable RESET or GPIO functionality, in which case 12V pulse is not needed for programming.
I wanted to check what the factory default setting is, but it looks like Microchip's datasheet is incomplete in this regard... However information on the website you linked looks reasonable.

This may explain why you managed to program a device only once, by programming fuse bits in a way that locks it out from programming without 12V pulse, but doesn't explain why you had problems with fresh chips or Windows.

Whatever you try, don't send 12V pulse to Arduino ;) Or at least do it through 4k7 resistor.
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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by mctom »

So yesterday I updated code of eos, my room light daemon.
Normally I do things like that right the first time, but clearly I'm getting older and made a few typos and errors that prevented it from building.

Another bug that I've just found caused the lights to go full on at 4:55AM :roll:
They were supposed to emulate a sunrise, not nuclear blast :lol:
Oh well, I don't mind.. Cat started vomiting 2 minutes later.
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Post by mad_ady »

Cat started vomiting 2 minutes later.
Probably a side effect of radiation...
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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by zyssai »

What a good start of day :D
I really love cats... But have enough with my child's :lol:

Thanks for these informations. I cannot explain why I succeed to flash only one once, and not the others.
Probably I modified a fuse settings, but this would not explain why It doesn't work on the second computer, because of a different IDE installation, and so, a stock fuse settings.
I thought about gpio mode of the pin in my sketch but I do not need this pin so it isn't declared.

I will try serialupdi flash today.

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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by mctom »

zyssai wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2024 3:55 pm
Probably I modified a fuse settings, but this would not explain why It doesn't work on the second computer, because of a different IDE installation, and so, a stock fuse settings.
Fuse bits are inside AVR chip, it's a low level configuration. I don't know how Arduino language handles that, but I'm guessing it's hiding fuse bits from the user..
I may have said that before, but I'm used to programming AVRs in Assembly or C, without Arduino environment.

I'm sure you will find information online about what went wrong, I can only guess. I don't even have UPDI enabled AVR to test things on my side.
I don't think a different programming device will change anything, unless one of them has buggy firmware..
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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by zyssai »

So, it works with a FT232RL TTL to USB adapter, even with used or new chips. Don't know why it does not work anymore with my UNO.
I added a 4.7kOhm resistor between RX and TX, connected RX to UPDI pin and it worked using SerialUPDI programmer mod of IDE.

And the bonus of using this is I can program at 3.3V, so I prevent damage to the board regulator by sending 5v to it.

Image

Thanks for the help anyway :)
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mctom wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2024 5:53 pm

@L67GS, so I understand you've made a manual, sequential gearbox control?
Yes, for an Autocross car I'm building. it hasn't been fully tested yet so I don't know if the main pressure control solenoid is going to be managed by the factory PCM or if I'm going to have to PWM that. I have here the interface to program the PCM to eliminate the error codes for the shift solenoids so I should be able to enable Manual shift or Automatic on the fly, or perhaps with a restart.
The reaction time of the PIC is 10ms so using solid state to drive the shift solenoids I should be able to shift faster than Mario Andretti, lol.
Essentially the PIC reads the PRNDL switch, then drives the shift solenoids in the transmission. I didn't bother doing anything with the Torque Converter lockup in manual mode because the car will rarely see third gear on the track, probably never fourth but it can do fourth anyway.

Also in the 1/2 finished project pile is a PIC ignition coil sequencer for the same car that sits atop the factory Ignition Control Module, the code is written but it needs field tested. From the factory the car has a wasted spark ignition, which is fine, but 3 of the cylinders spark opposite polarity (from ground to electrode) and my OCD keeps me awake at night over this fearing poor burn qualities in half of the engine. My sequencer takes the CAM sensor position every CAM rotation (just one pulse per CAM rotation factory) and then drives COP coils in the correct order each time a firing event is triggered, Spark intensity should be improved, and the polarity will be corrected.

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Re: Off Topic Banter

Post by mctom »

I think PIC can react much faster than 10ms, possibly too fast in some circumstances. Hopefully you coded a deglitch routine on each digital input!
And you'll be driving ignition with PIC too? Now that's just crazy. One PIC to rule the whole engine bay?
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mctom wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2024 10:15 pm
I think PIC can react much faster than 10ms, possibly too fast in some circumstances. Hopefully you coded a deglitch routine on each digital input!
And you'll be driving ignition with PIC too? Now that's just crazy. One PIC to rule the whole engine bay?
They run at different frequencies, select-able. I think I figured that running on the much slower internal oscillator since it wasn't timing critical like sending data. Just less to go wrong.
1 PIC per project, if I did everything I want to that car there will be like a dozen PICs and at least one SBC in there, lol.
Last edited by L67GS on Fri Feb 02, 2024 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by L67GS »

Looked at two houses tonight, the first was on two acres. Of the two acres something like 1.6 acres was all hill, YAY! All the taxes with none of the usefulness! The house was tiny despite looking huge from outside too. Funny how the old farm houses always seem to do that.
The second one was on the only busy road in a small town in the middle of nowhere with a barking bog next door. Not ideal for a day sleeper so I didn't even view the inside.
I guess my house just isn't for sale yet...

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Post by mctom »

L67GS wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2024 11:03 am
1 PIC per project, if I did everything I want to that car there will be like a dozen PICs and at least one SBC in there, lol.
I'm currently working on yet another batch of 10k+ simulations of corner cases of an automotive design. A tiny bit of a bigger chip that you'll probably find in all new cars 5 years from now, lol.
Simulated conditions are very different from consumer electronics. Temperature range, for example, begins at -55C. Aging for 10+ years constantly above boiling point of water, with 5 sigma reliability.
That's even more we had in space industry, but no radiation to worry about. Imagine those 3nm transistors hit by a radiation photon, lol.

Lesson learned for me, if I ever wanted to build something for myself to last forever, I'd pay more for automotive parts.
I'm not saying that @zyssai's multimedia center for cars should be made with military grade SBC, but perhaps it's worth looking into automotive PICs for engine control at least.
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Post by mctom »

I just saw a new Bus Pirate v5. I still own "the old one" that I used mainly for flashing AVRs.
Its debugging capabilities were a disappointment and I prefer using native ODROID GPIO for that.

I don't understand what I'm seeing and honestly I'm not interested anymore.
Looks like a cyberdeck fringe, just for the sake of owning one.
They say they've been developing this for 5 years?

I was considering starting my own company at some point in my life, but after seeing things like that, I don't think I understand the market at all.
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Post by zyssai »

zyssai wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2024 6:04 pm
I have a huge save to do :lol:
Already removed pads from IC, need to straighten IC pins, and have a fun time with PCB :)

Image

Just need to add soldermask before put IC in place.
Image
Image

Not an easy job, but it's done :)

Anyone know how to test this piece?
It's seems to be a transponder coming from a key fob.
The key fob can open the car (at least I hope it opens it again as I scratched IC while disassemble it :lol: ), but card is not recognized to start vehicle.

Image

@mctom, I'm not sure of what I see, it's a tuning designed programmer?

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Post by mctom »

I'm not sure either.

I don't think this is meant to be tweaked with a tool, the three metallic dots on top more or less align with component pads.

Red glue blobs suggest it's heavy, is fragile or may vibrate. I assume it's flat, so probably some kind of reactive component.
I think it's an antenna. :)
Wire may be wound on the recess in the center.

Unfortunately wireless technology was never my favorite subject.
I wasn't fond of calibrating soviet made RF generators in the university lab :lol:
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Post by zyssai »

Yeah it's flat, fragile, but not heavy. It's an antenna, as soon as we insert the card, the vehicle launch accessory position (there's no apparent contact pins).

Customer gives me 2 faulty cards.
One of them have transponder with broken pads.

And this one seems to be soldered correctly. I have resoldered it to be sure.

I tried ohms mode to compare the 2 ones, each one have around 100ohm resistance even desoldered.

So I will remount them, send them back, and hope for the best :)
Last edited by zyssai on Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by mctom »

100 ohm is a typical termination resistance of differential pairs for high speed data. Another common value is 90 ohms. So that's definitely it. :)
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Post by L67GS »

Does anybody here have a Jeremy's Razor? I saw a youtube review that said it was effortless, and another that said it was a whisker puller but I think it's the difference between the two available blade cartridges.
I just ordered the 6 blade and have concerns about it clogging fast but the guy that reported the good experience was using the six blade cartridge, not the five.
Either way I'm hopeful to have a razor in a few days that doesn't agonizingly rip hairs from my face like my Mach 3.

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that doesn't agonizingly rip hairs from my face like my Mach 3.
I thought that was the normal way of shaving...

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Post by rooted »

I use a Gillette safety razor from the late 1950s, with good German made blades it's definitely not a hair puller.

It can however be a face peeler if not careful.
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rooted wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2024 8:36 pm

It can however be a face peeler if not careful.
I had two, one was the screw together type and the other was a flip open top. Like you said as long as I was careful they were a great shave, but when I was in a hurry it was vicious .... and then there's the matter of the mole on my neck.
In the end I couldn't get rid of the mole or my time constraints so I gave the screw together to my brother and the flip top is still floating around waiting for it's next victim.

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Post by rooted »

Oh it will shave a mole off real nice, then you're late due to bleeding for the next thirty minutes....unless you happen to have a styptic pencil or powder handy.

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I think super glue was originally developed to seal wounds. ;)
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Post by rooted »

mctom wrote:I think super glue was originally developed to seal wounds. ;)
Unfortunately every time I go to use a tube of super glue it's crystalized.

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Post by rooted »

Broke out my first Odroid which is the C1 (non-plus) and was going to run it as a tailscale node at my mom's house and my power supply had died on me unfortunately.

Luckily the USB cable for the OGA has the same absolutely tiny barrel connector and was able to power it for testing but unfortunately I get no IP on the DietPI image I flashed. Network must be working as the LAN light has activity but it's not getting an IP address.

Not a good start.

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mctom wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:55 pm
I think super glue was originally developed to seal wounds. ;)
When I was working for myself Super Glue was 1/2 of my medical plan. Raw honey being the other half.

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Post by hominoid »

L67GS wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2024 12:53 pm
mctom wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:55 pm
I think super glue was originally developed to seal wounds. ;)
When I was working for myself Super Glue was 1/2 of my medical plan. Raw honey being the other half.
With some health plans and providers in the US you still might be better served with your original plan in the long run.
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Post by zyssai »

I am actually looking for this capacitor (if it really is one), but no way to find it, only found one on ebay.de but seller does not want to ship to France (told me some legal problems regarding packaging :| ).

Image

Does anyone have an idea of what I need to search?
As the value(s) seems strange (0.068uF + 2x2400pF), around 6A at 250V.

Any help appreciated :)

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zyssai wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2024 6:01 am
I am actually looking for this capacitor (if it really is one), but no way to find it, only found one on ebay.de but seller does not want to ship to France (told me some legal problems regarding packaging :| ).

Image

Does anyone have an idea of what I need to search?
As the value(s) seems strange (0.068uF + 2x2400pF), around 6A at 250V.

Any help appreciated :)
If you can find a datasheet for it to see how it's connected inside, perhaps replace it with your own bank of caps.

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Post by mctom »

I cannot see pictures that you post. This could be a limitation of my workplace's network though.

Both 24 and 68 are within E24 series, so I wouldn't say their values aren't typical, but indeed I couldn't find any equivalent with the same values either.

It looks like an EMI filter rather than Power Factor Correction device, so the device might work even without it, but surely it's preferred to have one. Otherwise that device will spread noise through the AC grid beyond standard levels and cause other things in your home to behave erratically. Ever since I replaced my fridge, I have no issues with my monitor going blank randomly...
The exact capacitance values are not critical, that component probably has 20% tolerances or even worse. I think you can allow some 20-30% deviation from original values, and prefer higher values if anything.

@L67GS is right, you could also build it with three discrete components. You can use the diagram from eBay to recreate the same connections. Two smaller caps are connected to earth wire (yellow and green). The current rating of this component is mostly for wires inside it, not capacitors, so I wouldn't worry about that.
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Post by zyssai »

L67GS wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2024 8:05 am
If you can find a datasheet for it to see how it's connected inside, perhaps replace it with your own bank of caps.
Thanks. Unfortunately I cannot find any datasheet, the only part number brings me to this ebay seller :lol:
mctom wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2024 1:19 pm
...
Thanks mctom. As this is an help for a friend, I think I will let him know the part exists but he needs to send it to a German friend, and then ship to France.
I will not take the risk to mount any diy replacement part (even if I have no doubts about the feasibility, like you described it).
This part is for an Hebor machine, like this one. So not worth to work on it.

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Post by L67GS »

I know this is an odd question and an odd place to ask it but most of the smartest people I know are here on this forum. Does anybody have a circuit that is capable of detecting low voltage DC inductively? At the plant I work at we have solenoids on everything and most of them have no indicators to tell their state so I would love to have an inductive pickup that I could clip on to them and see if they're even being told to cycle.
I I've experimented with capacitive touch sensors thinking that maybe I get lucky, I'm contemplating fiddling with some MOSFETs next because I know it doesn't take much to trigger one.
24 VDC

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Post by mctom »

Inductive detectors cannot work with DC voltage.
Voltage detectors, such as those for finding AC wires in walls, work because AC creates electromagnetic field around it, which can be picked up by an antenna.

More specifically, electric field creates proportional magnetic field. That's how solenoids and electromagnets in general work.
But only a change of magnetic field creates electric field in return. That's how electric generators work, by waving magnets around wires.

These two properties combined give us electromagnetic waves that propagate through space, by affecting each other in these peculiar ways.
In case of DC voltage, static electric and magnetic fields are present, and they do not induce any current in neighboring conductors.

So, detecting some 24V DC remotely isn't something I would attempt.
I think your best chance is to try detecting solenoid's magnetic field when it's operated. 3-axis magnetic sensors exist and can be read by PIC via I2C:
https://learn.adafruit.com/mlx90393-wid ... r/overview

These are sensitive enough to pick up Earth's magnetic field and are used as compasses in most mobile devices, so surely they should indicate something near a solenoid.
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Post by L67GS »

DC induction along a conductor is indeed detectable, but not easily. Which is why DC amp clamps are typically more expensive than AC.
But I actually drew the same conclusion as you last night that it would be far easier to read the coil.
After my earlier post I experimented with one of the only things that just happened to be in my bag of random electronics stuff at work, TTP223 capacitive touch sensor.
TTP223 actually works fantastic when laid on the side of a coil, but the auto calibration feature recalibrates after about 6 seconds, so that's obviously a problem for something I wish to use to monitor the devices.
I don't work again until Friday night so I'm going to grab a few things from my lab to take in and try, I have another couple different capacitive touch sensors and a variety of MOSFETs. I think I can come up with something out of the ordinary that works.
In my room at work we have several spare solenoids in different styles I can tinker with so it makes more sense to develop this there than in my lab.
I am also curious now to try my DC clamp meter on a 24v circuit that only draws ~250ma just to see what it does.

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Post by mctom »

L67GS wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:54 pm
DC induction along a conductor is indeed detectable
It isn't because it's impossible ;)
Induction by definition requires a variable magnetic field.

DC current generates constant magnetic field. A DC clamp on ammeter captures that magnetic field, and then it gets measured using Hall Effect sensor. It's a super indirect method, but it works after crazy amounts of amplification and filtering.
No induction is involved, because again, it's not possible.

Detecting a coil designed to generate a substantial magnetic field will be much easier, that's why I suggested monitoring the solenoid itself.
I also suggested 3-axis magnetometer because Hall Sensors either have analog output that requires extra amplification, or have 1-bit digital output that only gets reset with reverse magnetic field, not a lack of it. :)

L67GS wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:54 pm
TTP223 actually works fantastic when laid on the side of a coil,
Have you tried with a disabled, but still grounded solenoid? ;)
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Post by L67GS »

I guess I'm not clear on how a magnetic field is generated without induction but whatever.
I did indeed test a non powered coil with the same solenoid in it's off state and grounded. TTP223 was able to see the coil cycle every time but recalibrated after a few seconds.

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