The Next ODROID!

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Re: The Next ODROID!

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by endecotp »

Just a quick message to say yes I'll buy one or two, the spec is excellent and the price is great too.
Non-free GPU drivers (mali) is the main disadvatage to me.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by rooted »

The interest in this board is crazy, that's three articles and almost 10.5K thread views in less than 48 hours.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by Cerian »

Nice. Was kinda hoping the next board would be an XU5 with an updated Exynos though. But very nice to finally see a new ODROID board! :-)

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by DarkBahamut »

Likewise here. This seems like an interesting board and I can see how it could be useful for many people, but it's no real replacement for an XU3/4 device which is a shame (and what I hoped for)

The CPU block is particularly disappointing. It's likely the N1 will actually be no faster or even slower than an XU4 in heavy multithreaded workloads. Plus 8 watts in a single thread browser benchmark? That just goes to show how hard Rockchip are pushing those A72s on 28nm - a process the A72 wasn't targeted for. Personally I would rather have seen an extra $10-20 spent on the BOM for the SoC to get something that isn't quite so 'mid range'. I won't call the N1 'overpriced', but rather I wish it was just a tiny bit more expensive for a much better SoC on a newer low power process.

I do note the datasheet calls for a 1.8GHz max clock on those A72's. I assume the perf/w curves are being seriously abused to achieve the 2GHz clock in the interests of performance - I assume this is why it has to throttle on a large passive cooler even though it only has 2 'big' cores on a modern efficient architecture.

I remain hopeful of a true 'XU5' board someday which returns back to the high-end roots with cutting edge compute on CPU/GPU in the old small form factor. That will be something to get excited about :)

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by elatllat »

DarkBahamut wrote:...XU5...
The problem with any other SOC is (like the XU4) it would take years to develop the linux drivers, where as the N1 has useable linux drivers now (partly because the SOC is already 2 years old).
Last edited by elatllat on Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by elatllat »

elatllat wrote: ...It's nice that there will be a lot of Rockchip boards soon so the communities can benefit from each others work...
Excavator sapphire

RK3399-Q7

Orange Pi RK3399

rico-3399

Rock960

iFive 2-in-1

Techvision 2-in-1

FenMi TV box

Ugoos UT5 TV box

PiPo V5 Android VR Headset

$65 RockPro64

$149 firefly-rk3399

$300 ASUS Chromebook Flip

$500 Samsung Chromebook Plus OP1


Or slightly different SOCs

$35 ROC-RK3328-CC

$100 RockPro64-IA
Last edited by elatllat on Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:24 am, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by moon.linux »

Looks like Rockchip SOC is going to dominate the SBC in the future. Goodby RPI-3.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by rooted »

Make that 4 articles in 48 hours

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/ra ... 4k-support

I loathe these Raspberry Pi references.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by linuxest »

DarkBahamut wrote:Likewise here. This seems like an interesting board and I can see how it could be useful for many people, but it's no real replacement for an XU3/4 device which is a shame (and what I hoped for)

The CPU block is particularly disappointing. It's likely the N1 will actually be no faster or even slower than an XU4 in heavy multithreaded workloads. Plus 8 watts in a single thread browser benchmark? That just goes to show how hard Rockchip are pushing those A72s on 28nm - a process the A72 wasn't targeted for. Personally I would rather have seen an extra $10-20 spent on the BOM for the SoC to get something that isn't quite so 'mid range'. I won't call the N1 'overpriced', but rather I wish it was just a tiny bit more expensive for a much better SoC on a newer low power process.

I do note the datasheet calls for a 1.8GHz max clock on those A72's. I assume the perf/w curves are being seriously abused to achieve the 2GHz clock in the interests of performance - I assume this is why it has to throttle on a large passive cooler even though it only has 2 'big' cores on a modern efficient architecture.

I remain hopeful of a true 'XU5' board someday which returns back to the high-end roots with cutting edge compute on CPU/GPU in the old small form factor. That will be something to get excited about :)

I agree it should have four A72 or A73 cores with 12~14nm fab. But there is no hdmi port in the recent Exynos SoCs because samsung focuses on the smartphone galaxy market only. So hardkernel guys couldn't find a right soc yet probably. do you have any idea to build a luxury single board computer instead of the rk3399?
by the way, someone should make a perf vs freq graph with the N1 sample once the party starts. do you remember the fake 2gh on s905? :mrgreen:

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by odroid »

We will try to ship the N1 engineering samples next week to the following community members.
We will contact them via PM tomorrow to get a name, shipping address, email and phone number for Fedex courier.

meveric
crashoverride
mad_ady
memeka
rooted
mlinuxguy
wrxtasy
Raybuntu
OverSun
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tkaiser
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brad
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scpcom
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hominoid
jit
peba
tipoto
ptitSeb
umiddelb
voodik
joerg
peak3d
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Ameridroid
ODROID,Inc.


There are a few more invitations on my hand.
If you think I missed some important members, please let me know.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by rooted »

I think our resident kernel guru @moon.linux would benefit from access to the N1 :)

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by odroid »

I will add voodik and moon.linux

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by rooted »

odroid wrote:I will add Voodik and Linux.moon.
That's great, what about @joerg?

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by OverSun »

This is like a Christmas in february!
An article review on russian most geek site is on me for a start. Odroids were always welcome there.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by odroid »

I don't know how I forgot joerg.
Added 3 people.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by odroid »

I have 2 free tickets now.

Edit: We have no more invitation.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by tkaiser »

linuxest wrote:someone should make a perf vs freq graph with the N1 sample once the party starts. do you remember the fake 2gh on s905? :mrgreen:
Pretty easy in the meantime since Willy Tarreau who spotted the cheating back then now provides a nice and suitable little tool for the purpose called 'mhz': https://www.cnx-software.com/2018/01/31 ... ent-551410

Guess who's still cheating? Amlogic, both S905X and S912 everywhere come with a firmware that uses differing real clockspeeds than those that are reported to the kernel, same with Raspberry Pi 3 (also firmware cheating) but with Rockchip it's different since the whole DVFS/cpufreq stuff can be adjusted by us.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by rooted »

OverSun wrote:This is like a Christmas in february!
An article review on russian most geek site is on me for a start. Odroids were always welcome there.
It is :)

Early valentine's day.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by tkaiser »

linuxest wrote:do you have any idea to build a luxury single board computer instead of the rk3399?
Sure, just check 96boards and there the X20 or HiKey960 (or 970/975 soon). More 'CPU horsepower' so you can generate impressive looking benchmark graphs, they're also that expensive no one right in his mind will buy them, you can spend a week working through the SDK to get just started and their (lack of) interfaces prevents doing anything reasonable with those things. Pure luxury as requested ;)

The RK3399 is a pretty good choice since for all those IO/network centric use cases N1 will be 'fast enough' while also providing a solid foundation for all 'Desktop Linux' use cases. There GPU/VPU software support and high single threaded performance is important, that's what the 2 x A72 are for and the biggest challenge might be related to scheduler settings/improvements (getting stuff done on the appropriate cores -- so it's a real XU4 successor)

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by The_Ponderer »

I want i want i want i want i want i want i want!!!!!!!!!

I love the xu4 i have, but for a mobile application that im putting together this will be much better suited to my taste. Ive been using thw xu4 in home tandem with my win10 desktop dping some mining rather sucessfully. So this looks promising.

Im guess 100 bucks as is, and then 75 for the lesser items(2gb ram, 1 sata port)?

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by mbili »

elatllat wrote:
DarkBahamut wrote:...XU5...
The problem with any other SOC is (like the XU4) it would take years to develop the linux drivers, where as the N1 has useable linux drivers now (partly because the SOC is already 2 years old).
Agree 100%. SOC for N1 is a very good compromise between price, HW performance and SW availability! Drivers and other SW do not come out of thin air - i.e. just pop up on Internet.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by moon.linux »

odroid wrote:I have 2 free tickets now.

Edit: We have no more invitation.
Do not forget @tobetter.
Last edited by moon.linux on Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by testman_fr »

Hello,
I am familiar with raspberryPI. I followed their evolution and I have several .. But what I like in the Odroid N1 is the SATA port that I miss now. I am looking for this kind of card to make terminals in stores.
I would like to test, otherwise I will wait for its release.
Have a good day.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by testman_fr »

Little question, UART port works in 9bit mode?
I work on a distributor in MDB mode.
Thanks.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by joerg »

odroid wrote:I don't know how I forgot joerg.
Added 3 people.
But I know: It's because I am less active in this forum last one and half year. But nice that @rooted hasn't forgotten about me. ;)

First to say that I am impressed so far.

I have some experience with the rk3288 based Asus Tinkerboard. When I was preparing a C2 to replace my C1 in the car, it fallen down and was dead. There was no C2 available on the market, so I used this TB and ported all the stuff I need (gps, wiringpi, gpiomem, hdmi resolution,...). At the end I gave up, as I haven't found a solution for the missing touch events on my chalk-elec touch screen. I rooted this down to the dwc_otg_310 in the 3.10 kernel. But I wasn't motivated to investigate further, so I replaced the TB by the C2 I got in January.
I hope, for the Android image HK uses a newer kernel as 3.10.
And I hope HK implements a better way to change the resolution as this usually is done on rk based sbc. To change the resolution for the VU7+ or back to another, need to recompile the kernel. The form on C1/C2 is much better, by editing the boot.ini. The TB even stucks on boot, if the given timings are not matching.
Why I use the TB now to develop further my AlarmCentral is that it has on board wifi, on board bluetooth, spi and rpi form factor.

Delivery
Delivery from Korea to Germany for my experience is somehow troublesome. Sent by Fedex, this company will pay the taxes at German customs without my permission and demands service fee for that. I am not so poor that I cannot pay 15EUR but for me it is a form of highway robbery I decline. Got the last C2 via EMS and had luck. It passed the customs without any problem and was delivered out by DHL. But before I had a lot of trouble with the delivery from HK US store by normal airmail. The parcel was opened by the local customs officer and he didn't hand it out to me because: No German manual, no waste symbol on printed board, no proforma invoice. He forwarded it to local government and I waited 6 weeks without to hear something. Called to the government and heard that they are not responsible any more. Called to the customs officer and he was surprised that the parcel is still at their office, but at the end got the parcel and payed taxes for a value of 65$, bargained like on a flea market. But I read about, that a lot of people had big trouble also with EMS deliveries.

It don't make sense to have a Odroid N1 on the table and don't know what to do with it. So I thought, I check if I can move my 2 3TB WD Red disks from nas4free to the N1. But when I checked the status, I saw that one HD isn't anymore there and I did a reboot. It won't come up again, now I have work ... :(

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by rooted »

joerg wrote:
odroid wrote:I don't know how I forgot joerg.
Added 3 people.
But I know: It's because I am less active in this forum last one and half year. But nice that @rooted hasn't forgotten about me. ;)
You made some nice contributions, not easy to forget about that. Odroid simply deals with way more people in a day, look at his post count :eek:
joerg wrote: So I thought, I check if I can move my 2 3TB WD Red disks from nas4free to the N1. But when I checked the status, I saw that one HD isn't anymore there and I did a reboot. It won't come up again, now I have work ... :(
Hopefully just a software issue, if not the drive is still under warranty.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by ard »

elatllat wrote:
DarkBahamut wrote:...XU5...
The problem with any other SOC is (like the XU4) it would take years to develop the linux drivers, where as the N1 has useable linux drivers now (partly because the SOC is already 2 years old).
I cannot really agree on that.
The exynos series did not really change that much, and Samsung is pushing a lot upstream. As such they have been in the top 5 linux kernel contributors for years now. (Next to the fact that they are heavily involved in gstreamer and enlightenment).
The real reason not to go for another exynos are twofold:
1) The patent troll Qualcomm forbid Samsung to sell exynos to third parties. I think the current lawsuits of Apple vs Qualcomm is about exactly that: patenttrolling, and Samsung is providing Apple with amunition against Qualcomm. Currently Samsung is selling again it seems.
2) Any current exynos SoC probably has the same price as the board odroid N1 currently has. The top of the line exynos is out of reach. The next from the middle line in exynos 5 seems to be faster than the (then) top of the line exynos5422.

You are correct however in that the RK3399 has very good support, as it is certified OP1 (at least the RK3399C) by google.
It has however no opensource video encoder and decoder support. As far as I can see most SoC's except for the exynos have no opensource video codec support. Samsung added the v4l m2m to the linux kernel to have an opensource interface to the kernel for bitstream coders, colorspace converters, resizers, and even a stab at the videomixer concept that still has no vanilla kernel abstraction (for none of the platforms with a videomixer, despite Samsung having sent multiple RFC's on how to solve that).
It would be nice when other SoC's start supporting an interface like that.

Anyway, do not forget that the raspberry pi still has ways to go before it is as open and as supported in mainline as a Xu4. And there are a lot more people working on the Pi.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by elatllat »

ard wrote:...cannot really agree...Samsung...no opensource video...raspberry pi...
Yes I'm a samsung fan but there is no better SOC from them that is actually mostly usable with GNU/Linux right now (AFAIK).
I was hoping that samsung GNU-on-your-phone project would change that but nothing happened.
I would also love a opensource only solution, maybe Rockchip will improve on that as Broadcom did.
The raspberrypi had closedsource blobs when it first came out, but the raspberrypi is stuck 10 years in the past with USB2.
Raspberrypi may be stuck with Broadcom but Odroid can select the vendor that is best for us/them.


So unlike any alternative, Rockchip looks to mostly all works right now.
The N1 is not the last SBC to be made, so the moment a significantly better SOC becomes more usable I'm sure you will have your choice of SBCs featureing it.
(I wanted a 10nm 8GB SOC but if the software/price are not ready I'll be happy with a N1 until a better SOC is ready for SBCing)

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by moon.linux »

On of the good accept of RockChip/FreeScale SOS is that it has best support in u-boot mainline.
Samusng is behind because they dont support as much as they should to u-boot mainline.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by campbell »

moon.linux wrote:On of the good accept of RockChip/FreeScale SOS is that it has best support in u-boot mainline.
Samusng is behind because they dont support as much as they should to u-boot mainline.
Yes, between the RK3399 for consumer stuff and the i.MX8 for higher end/industrial stuff I don't see why Amlogic/Samsung/Allwinner would continue to be appealing.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by campbell »

I like the idea of a 2 GB version of the N-1 to bring the price (and power consumption) down. Not sure I like the idea of omitting BOTH sata ports on it though. Can you get some of the cost savings by just omitting one, or is it a controller issue rather than a connector issue?

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by inf3rno »

Solving the cabling somehow would make it even more attractive.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by phaseshifter »

still think the sata board connectors should have been shrouded ....
necessity the mother of all creation and invention..!!!

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by elatllat »

campbell wrote:I like the idea of a 2 GB version of the N-1 to bring the price (and power consumption) down. Not sure I like the idea of omitting BOTH sata ports on it though. Can you get some of the cost savings by just omitting one, or is it a controller issue rather than a connector issue?
If you don't want the extra RAM/SATA what is wrong with the existing products?

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by rooted »

phaseshifter wrote:still think the sata board connectors should have been shrouded ....
Still can be, this is pre-production.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by campbell »

elatllat wrote:If you don't want the extra RAM/SATA what is wrong with the existing products?
XU4: No native Ethernet, no native SATA, board needs 10 watts to boot up, only 32 bit, draws a crapload of power under load
C2: not much wrong actually. Mainline kernel support has some rough edges that may never get fixed. Wish it had an onboard RTC, and SATA would be nice. Therefore the N1 is a logical step to take from the C2.

I didn't say i didn't want SATA, I just don't need two of them. And i would venture that only 1 customer out of 4 actually would notice the extra two gigabytes of RAM - shame for everyone to have to pay extra for it (and limit board availability, as we saw happen with the C2) because of that one part.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by ASword »

campbell wrote:XU4: No native Ethernet
Out of curiosity, given their chart in the OP showing Ethernet performance is virtually identical between XU4 and N1 (and quite good at that), what difference does "native Ethernet" make?

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by mad_ady »

I think it frees up a usb3 controller so that you can have two independent usb3 busses (that's why hc1/2 ship with a usb2 port).

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by rooted »

mad_ady wrote:I think it frees up a usb3 controller so that you can have two independent usb3 busses (that's why hc1/2 ship with a usb2 port).
Right, if you stress USB3 on XU4 the network bandwidth will suffer. But only if stressing both at the same time.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by tkaiser »

ASword wrote:Out of curiosity, given their chart in the OP showing Ethernet performance is virtually identical between XU4 and N1
'Performance' is not only defined by bandwidth but also by (low) latency. And it's also important to generate as less CPU utilization as possible when transferring stuff through the network. A SoC native implementation (like almost everywhere it's https://www.synopsys.com/dw/ipdir.php?d ... 1000_unive ) connected to an external GbE PHY through RGMII today outperforms USB3 solutions (though the RTL8153 used on XU4 is the best USB Ethernet thingie available). And of course you've one USB3 host port free for other usage.
campbell wrote:Not sure I like the idea of omitting BOTH sata ports on it though. Can you get some of the cost savings by just omitting one
Not really, the used controller (ASM1061) can already be considered low end and features 2 SATA ports. The only interesting change would be to stay with 2 SATA ports but to enhance controller <--> SoC interconnect by switching to the most probably slightly more expensive ASM1062. But first we need to test for PCIe issues and SoC internal bottlenecks.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by campbell »

ASword wrote:
campbell wrote:XU4: No native Ethernet
Out of curiosity, given their chart in the OP showing Ethernet performance is virtually identical between XU4 and N1 (and quite good at that), what difference does "native Ethernet" make?
The XU4 draws half a watt more when you hit it with just a few Mbit/s of ethernet packets. Presumably more when it's working harder. The C2, with its native ethernet, draws NO measureable extra power vs network load. There's no GOOD reason power consumption should scale with network activity when the device isn't even doing anything with the packets.

Also, having everything go through the USB bus on the XU4 means if the USB bus browns out due to a hard drive drawing more than the expected amount of power (or is otherwise overloaded by other USB activity, like a USB-to-mSATA dongle), you can't SSH into it to fix it. This isn't hypothetical - it's happened to us repeatedly, and was one of the reasons we switched to the C2.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by tkaiser »

odroid wrote:According to the RK3399 datasheet page 69, one PCIe lane can support 2.5 GT/s only.
http://opensource.rock-chips.com/images ... 170301.pdf
It means their PCIe is Gen1, not Gen2
And now look at Kconfig text for RK3399 PCIe stuff in mainline kernel from yesterday: https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/10204593/ -- interesting ;)

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by phaseshifter »

so that patch says that gen2 is now supported..is this correct in my little know how of these matters...
necessity the mother of all creation and invention..!!!

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by tkaiser »

campbell wrote:The XU4 draws half a watt more when you hit it with just a few Mbit/s of ethernet packets.
And with full network utilization and performance governor you're good for almost 3W consumption increase in RX+ direction: https://forum.armbian.com/topic/4983-od ... ment=37989 (why RX? Since here IRQ processing of incoming packets adds to overall efforts). Internal SoC Gigabit Ethernet MAC + RGMII attached GbE PHY is the way better choice than USB Ethernet.

But again as already said: the RTL8153 on XU4/HC1/HC2 is a pretty good USB Ethernet implementation especially compared to the other well known USB3/GbE thing: AX88179 (as on XU3). With the usual 'benchmarks' letting iperf run in a single direction the difference is not that noticeable but with real-world workloads, bidirectional traffic and a mix of small and large packets it becomes obvious how much more crappy AX88179 is compared to RTL8153 (and especially 'native' GbE on modern ARM SoCs). In the meantime there's a 3rd USB3/GbE solution available but I've not found it in any products yet to test: http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/lan7800

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by tkaiser »

phaseshifter wrote:so that patch says that gen2 is now supported..is this correct in my little know how of these matters...
It's some text somewhere ;) We'll see. In the meantime over at http://irc.pine64.uk/ ayufan reported he already got NVMe working with RK3399 and kernel 4.4 (RockPro64) but performance is too low to be mentioned. Next steps: waiting for him getting Linux up and running (most probably with 4.4 first) and then doing some tests. This other RK3399 device is the better platform for any PCIe tests anyway since all 4 PCIe lanes exposed so we can test whatever we want.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by phaseshifter »

i just hope they get a Ubuntu image out soon...as Debian is not my forte..as far as Linux gui and so i do realize that Ubuntu is a derivative of Debian..
but i am not that familiar..with it as to say i don't use it so somewhat in the dark..but also not to say that i cannot cope with it as per odroids starter packs coming with this image
necessity the mother of all creation and invention..!!!

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by ASword »

Thanks for the comprehensive assessment of native vs non-native Ethernet guys.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by tkaiser »

phaseshifter wrote:i just hope they get a Ubuntu image out soon...as Debian is not my forte
If the Hardkernel OS image follows Rockchip conventions then there are a bunch of partitions with IIRC N°7 containing the rootfs. So it's backing up /lib/modules, then exchanging the whole partition contents with an arm64 Ubuntu rootfs, restoring /lib/modules/ and you're done (at least these were my first steps with RK3328 back in 2017 and IIRC I used an Armbian arm64 rootfs for ODROID-C2 to get instantly the environment I'm used to)

Though to give useful feedback to Hardkernel I wouldn't recommend this. Debian Stretch is slightly more 'modern' than Ubuntu Xenial (more recent packages) while Ubuntu 18.04 is still a moving target.

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Post by mlinuxguy »

I've been watching for a A72 board and almost got a: Orange Pi RK3399 Development Board ($109)
but flinched when I saw nothing had been uploaded to their site yet for Linux support.... I've been down that road before with early Orange boards.
This one has great specs... very interested in checking it out.

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