ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

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ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby XeoSal » Sat Dec 12, 2015 5:53 am

I guess HardKernel is currently working on an alternative to ODROID W, I created this thread to gather opinions and suggestions that we can pass to the PCB design team of HK so that they don't regret forgetting small details that would mean a lot to the actual community, these are my suggestions:

  • Revert back to Micro HDMI connector again instead of that big Type-A connector or maybe lets depend on SSH.
  • I would like to see USB otg with a power path as well, it's small enough, remove the round DC connector.
  • No Ethernet? Okay, please include something like WiFi and bluetooth chip under the PCB it would be nice.
  • Please think of the display connector it's very important for robotics, you can forget about eMMC for cost and room.
  • Moving the micro SD card reader to the top of the board is better I guess.

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I would say that it's nice HK has chosen the AMlogic s805 for this project as it's perfect for low power consumption and the software is already mature and available from our previous work. Also, I am so glad that they have come up with the portable power battery idea as it would be a great solution for many IOT projects, what are your suggestions guys?.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby synportack24 » Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:34 pm

Things that come to mind:
Wake on LAN (not sure if the S805 supports this), or at least an easy way to start/stop | turn on/off via some pin.
Software wise I would like to see a nice stable RTOS (There is one already on the forums, I wonder if anyone else would want this).
http://magazine.odroid.com/
submit an article get cool stuff!
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby stmicro » Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:35 pm

Please make an example code to use the HW H.264 encoder for recording or broadcasting the HD video input from the 720p usb webcam on the Linux.
The Android OS on the C1+ already supports this great feature but I want to make a video surveillance system with the C0 + WiFi + 720p webcam on Debian or Ubuntu headless.
It can be a affordable solar powered wirelss CCTV system too. :)
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby Tpimp » Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:39 pm

I second the request for RTOS like environment and H.264 encoder example for webcams.
-obviously these are software items but I think they will really drive sales if we can get them working.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby BigNorm » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:52 am

Hi Xeosal,

Firstly, I'm sure many Odroidians (myself included) really appreciate all the work you've done and am sure you'll will continue to do so:-) Thanks so much!

Two points where I 'disagree' with your 'wish-list', are the micro HDMI connector, and omission of the small barrel connector for power.

On earlier Odroids, I have had many problems with the micro HDMI connector. I've had to discard/destroy/burn at least three cables because of the micro connector:-(. IMHO the 'Normal' size connector is a winner - I've never had ANY problems with them (nor the cables:-)), and would strongly recommend that HK continues to standardize on the full size version.

Second point is the power connector. IMHO the small 5V barrel connector has (thanks again to HK) become a 'standard' for ODROIDS. Yes, the micro USB OTG connector kind of ensures no chance of connecting wrong voltage supplies, but my vote says keep the small barrel connector AND the OTG option...

Again, thanks for the Odroibian work you're doing - GREAT stuff!!!
Odroid X, Odroid X2, Odroid U2, Odroid U3, Odroid W, Odroid C1+, Odroid XU, Odroid XU3, Odroid XU4, C2, waiting for more:-)
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:36 am

I think having the USB OTG connector makes a lot of sense on this board. It common place to use it as a charging port on Android phones, so people would expect that. More importantly, there is no other way to talk to this board! The console cable is not wired, the ethernet is not wired (no SSH), and the USB is not wired (no keyboard/mouse). How do you do anything with it out of the box: lots of SD card swapping! The OTG port could, at the very least, impersonate a serial port for SSH.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby rooted » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:21 am

UART should be connected, I'm with crashoverride... need to be able to communicate with the device.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby Tpimp » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:25 pm

I think it is likely all pins or no pins. @Odroid what will pins cost? Can they be bundled at a low cost? I assume many will want the pins if they come at a fair deal. Likely 70-80+% of purchases will want pins I would guess. It would be great if at purchase one of two types of pins could be purchased(male or female). I would hope maybe distributors could stock these items and would make a good amount of sales if they are not too greedy on price. As pins off Amazon are dirt cheap if you will wait for shipping. The key is quality pins and that fit the C0 snug but without crowding the storage.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:45 am

Tpimp wrote:I think it is likely all pins or no pins.

If just the USB OTG is wired, then the other pins are not required. You can attach a USB hub with keyboard, mouse, wifi/ethernet and get the board up and running. However, there does not seem to be any space available for the connector to be permanently affixed to the board.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby Tpimp » Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:25 pm

I don't think the C0 even has OTG. At least I don't see it in the photos.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby XeoSal » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:52 pm

crashoverride wrote:If just the USB OTG is wired, then the other pins are not required. You can attach a USB hub with keyboard, mouse, wifi/ethernet and get the board up and running. However, there does not seem to be any space available for the connector to be permanently affixed to the board.

That's what I am thinking of, the OTG can be very useful for this board, it can be hooked to a powered hub as well then act dynamically as power input and data bus, so no need for barrel dc connector.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby Tpimp » Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:26 am

Power through OTG is not a great method. I think the lipo charge circuit hints at a different target power source.

But not saying your need is invalid. Why not just get a micro usb connector, wire it directly and run power through pins?
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby tve » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:50 am

I'm not really understanding the point of this board. It seems to me that its rumored price (~$25) is not very interesting. By the time one adds the necessary evils, from power to wifi, OTG cables, case, whatnot, the difference with the C1 becomes small. What I would find interesting is something similar to the PiZ with Wifi for ~$10, or perhaps with more horsepower (e.g. the s805 quad core) and wifi for ~$15. THat would suddenly be interesting because instead of a PiZ plus cable mess to get connectivity it's all integrated.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby Tpimp » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:20 am

I don't think you understand the cost difference between the two chipsets. AND THERE IS NO OTG cable.

also the difference between the C1 and C0 is minimal. This is the intention, a cheaper version of the C1.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:43 am

I think the differentiating feature of this board is the built in battery and charging support. This makes it a portable platform for significantly less cost than can be done with a PI Zero. The C0 has a built in RTC which is a MUST for anything IoT: you can't validate a certificate or log sensors without the correct date and time. The value of the C0 is in being a portable, un-tethered platform that just happens to be cheaper than the full C1.

The PI Zero appears to be designed as a loss leader: its purpose is to sell accessories. Its design means its pretty much useless unless you make additional purchases. It more of a business strategy than a consumer product strategy.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby venkatbo » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:54 am

crashoverride wrote:... The C0 has a built in RTC which is a MUST for anything IoT: you can't validate a certificate or log sensors without the correct date and time...

But elsewhere in the thread:
viewtopic.php?f=113&t=17855&p=117181&hilit=RTC+drift#p117149
there is an indication that:
... We observed around several minutes per day in worst case...

Given that kind of a drift, and the lack of an imminent solution, how useful would this board be in real-world IoT applications, realistically ?
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:39 am

venkatbo wrote:and the lack of an imminent solution

As noted in the thread, there already is a solution in linux. All consumer RTC clocks drift. The only thing that matters is that the drift is predictable. After clock drift is calibrated, it is compensated for mathematically as is done in PCs for decades.

The RTC is only used when the system boots. Once the kernel has read the date/time, it maintains its own independent system clock. A drifting RTC does not affect the operation of a running system. An Odroid C0 that has lost power or been rebooted can recover the time accurately from a RTC that has been calibrated. A PI Zero can not do this without adding a RTC to it ($7.58 without battery). Note that a RTC for PI will also require calibration just as every RTC does.

http://linux.die.net/man/8/hwclock
The Hardware Clock is usually not very accurate. However, much of its inaccuracy is completely predictable - it gains or loses the same amount of time every day. This is called systematic drift.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby rpnid » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:54 am

Question aside: why is this thread in "News" when there is both "General" and "The Ideas"?
deepthought:~# make common sense
make: *** No rule to make target `common'. Stop.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby XeoSal » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:37 pm

rpnid wrote:Question aside: why is this thread in "News" when there is both "General" and "The Ideas"?

FOR to indicate that's a new device upcoming very soon, spreading the news and asking for other people opinions, is there anything wrong with that?
By the way, this isn't your first post criticizing me and my threads, I am hopping there is nothing personal, do I know you? :shock:

rpnid wrote:Not wanting to disgrace this one, but maybe you may wish to look at a nearby thread.

That one comes with much less shouting but/and nevertheless seems to do it.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby Digimaster » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:29 pm

Particularly me not interested in board without wired Ethernet. External USB/Ethernet not the solution as well.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby Nik » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:46 pm

wifi would be good, but shouldn't be less efficient as (for example) an edimax ew-7811un

normal HDMI connector is best IMO because cables are cheaper and less fragile (it's not hard to destroy micro-hdmi connectors by just twisting them a little bit by accident)
I wished there were hdmi (normal size) cables which are just around 10-15 cm in length, too ;D

a better power connector instead of the current one or maybe a non-mounted 2x1 jumper which would allow to solder wires into the holes to supply 5V

microSD socket (at least for me) should stay below the board but maybe moved to a better location
I'm not sure if it's good to make the sd-card look over the PCB's edge in general, but maybe it's easier to access/grab it - for me it would be good if it reaches over the PCB's edge :)

maybe remove emmc socket completely? emmc is kinda expensive :/ the 16 gig version nearly is as expensive as the C1+ here ...

another idea (which I think is just a software problem): add UMTS support so UMTS data sticks can be used.

we (the company I work for) might use a lot of odroid C1+ as media players, but the cases where they will be mounted in are very thin
so currently we remove the LAN/USB sockets and IR and also have to cut off every pin of the GPIO connector
beside this, I have to solder 2 wires to the DCJack holes which isn't a good way :)

I just read about the Odroid C0 (after that I found this thread), it would be a really good board to start with because desoldering sockets is not needed when they aren't mounted on delivery :)
for USB, I can make a custom board with an USB controller and solder it into the holes of the non-mounted USB connectors
one USB connector would be used for the wifi-stick I mentioned above, that's why an on-board wifi controller would be a good idea, it just should have a good antenna solution
the SoC is cooled via the case in our solutions.
some devices can't have LAN/wifi, so UMTS sticks are used instead. Currently the only solution is to use a stick that has the option to run as a hotspot, and these sticks are rather expensive. :/

can anyone name a date when the C0 is available? I read about Feb 2016 ...

I hope these suggestions are helpful ;)
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:58 am

It was agreed in a different discussion that people want two different products: 1) IoT and 2) compute/OEM

My personal opinion on the matter is that Odroid C0 is the IoT product. Its design mandate is to operate portable and untethered. Following this goal, its meant to operate from a battery and has no ethernet which would physically tie it down with a cable. In this spirit, I feel it needs a USB OTG connector to interface with host computers to "sync" just as phones and tablets do. So the design change I would like to see is 1 USB OTG port for charging and host connection and 1 USB full size port for plugging in a single USB device or a hub for multiple devices.

A compute/OEM product would fit a different need. It would be intended for those that 'embed' the board as part of a value added product. See this link for discussion on ideas for the OEM product:
http://forum.odroid.com/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=17604
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby elatllat » Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:19 pm

My idea of IoT is power over wifi + gpio + some tiny single core CPU (no gpu) + tiny (like the Curie, Imp, or Edison)... because really the pi0 @ $5 covers the dirt cheap media center but is still overkill for a many IoT applications... and if it's going to have a power hungry GPU it's a media center and should be better than the XU4 (dac upgrade, 4k, usb type c)... so I don't really see a market for the C0 in the OP.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:22 pm

elatllat wrote:and if it's going to have a power hungry GPU it's a media center

The way the Amlogic S805 (and the majority of ARM SoCs) is designed is different to what people coming from the PC or RPi world imagine. In the Odroid Cx, video is handled by a Video Processing Unit (VPU), 3D command streams are handled by the GPU (Mali) and HDMI/CVBS is handled by a display controller. Additionally, all these IP blocks are power gated. If you do not need them, you simply don't turn them off. No matter how "power hungry" any of them are, they will not cost you any power or memory resources if you do not need them. Its cheaper to produce a mass market chip with these blocks in place than to make a speciality chip without them in low volumes.

elatllat wrote:is still overkill for a many IoT applications

I agree completely with that. There is a project I want to do that involves setting up a bunch of temperature/humidity sensors and reporting/logging the data. After investigating, the irony is that its far cheaper if I use an "overkill device" for each sensor location than to build it up out of Arduinos and "shields". This is because the C0/C1 allows me to use cheap, off-the-shelf USB devices to interface since it has a full OS stack and tools.

elatllat wrote:so I don't really see a market for the C0 in the OP.

Based on my personal experience mentioned above, I think the market for C0 is those doing custom, low volume "things" that are more concerned with cost, ease of development, and time spent. For me, simply having a hardware floating point unit is a major benefit.

[Edit]
I should also point out that RPi Zero is not a viable option for me. In addition to having "zero availability" (yes, its a pun), there is also a one-per-customer order limit. Furthermore, the CPU is armv6. That limits your choice of OS to exactly one: Raspbian. It also means I can not use certain software like Mono or CoreCLR. By the time I add a battery charger and RTC like the C0 has, the cost for the inferior Pi Zero has already surpassed the cost of a C0. A C0 with micro-USB/OTG charging and one full size USB port can be used as-is for many projects (of mine).
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Sat Jan 09, 2016 2:51 pm

crashoverride wrote: A C0 with micro-USB/OTG charging and one full size USB port can be used as-is for many projects (of mine).

I hope they call it Odroid C0: Crash Override Edition!
:lol:
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby XeoSal » Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:00 pm

crashoverride wrote: A C0 with micro-USB/OTG charging and one full size USB port can be used as-is for many projects (of mine).

I would be a little disappointed if it came without USB-OTG power/data buses on the same port. :)
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby rooted » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:48 pm

crashoverride wrote:
crashoverride wrote: A C0 with micro-USB/OTG charging and one full size USB port can be used as-is for many projects (of mine).

I hope they call it Odroid C0: Crash Override Edition!
:lol:


I'm looking for the 0C model (Zero Cool)
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby elatllat » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:27 am

crashoverride wrote:...Its cheaper to produce a mass market chip with these blocks in place...

Yah I get that, and that most IoT small things are micro controller based, I guess time will tell if that type of chip gets more popular.

crashoverride wrote:...RPi Zero ... "zero availability"...

The same thing happens with most pi releases; they don't stay in stock until a million have shipped.
By the time the C0 arrives (at likely more than twice the price) the pi0 will probably be more available.

crashoverride wrote:...limits your choice of OS to exactly one...

I count 46, but yah it sad to use such on old chip when there are such nice amlogic options.

crashoverride wrote:...Mono...

seems to work fine.

crashoverride wrote:...By the time I add a battery charger...

yah its nice ODROIDs ship with PSUs/power management/batteries.

crashoverride wrote:...RTC...

seems like one of those cases where networked software compensates and is superior to a hardware solution.

crashoverride wrote:...cost of a C0...

which is?

making a cheap board with a hat for each common use case would be a flexible approach, but it comes down to pricing as you can add most features to most SOCs.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:58 pm

elatllat wrote:The same thing happens with most pi releases; they don't stay in stock until a million have shipped.

All other PIs are licensed to two companies (RS and Farnell). They in turn do the actual manufacturing. In addition to having the incentive of competition, they also utilize more than one production line (UK, China). The story with RPi Zero is different: its not licensed. Its only made by the RPi Foundation at a single location (UK). That same location makes the other RPIs. Nobody else can make a RPI Zero and nobody else can get the SoC to make a clone. Since RPI Zero is not a high profit device, there is little incentive to bump production of higher cost RPIs in favor of it. Based on this, I believe that RPI Zero will be "eternally" in short supply. Its simply not profitable enough for anyone to sell. Instead, its a loss leader that gets you into the RPI ecosystem with the expectation of "up selling" full RPIs and/or accessories. That means the one-per-customer limit is crucial to the business strategy and unlikely to change.

elatllat wrote:I count 46

This will probably start a flamewar, but I what I meant is there is only one "real" OS. The criteria being "who is legally accountable" for it. While things like a Fedora spin were released for armv6, they have long ago dropped support for it.

elatllat wrote:seems to work fine.

There is a lot more to the story than is appropriate for this thread. CoreCLR has explicitly stated they will support armv7 and armv8.

elatllat wrote:seems like one of those cases where networked software compensates and is superior to a hardware solution.

This is actually an interesting "chicken and egg" problem. If you don't care about security, then its a non-issue. In cases where security is a concern, its a major issue ...
With a large number of IoT devices it is no longer practical to authenticate ALL of them over WiFI using a fixed password. In the event a device is compromised or the password is changed on the base station, each device needs to be MANUALLY changed. The more IoT devices, the larger the burden of doing this. This means that IoT devices require a certificate based authentication: each device has its own certificate and any device being compromised does not compromise the rest. In order to validate a certificate and revocation list (both the device and base station being connected to have to be mutually trusted), the correct time is needed. A device without a RTC can not connect to WiFI to get the time over the network to use to authenticate with WiFi. This is why I stated a RTC is mandatory for IoT.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:22 pm

Before I forget to mention it again ...

The topic is "What do you want in a typical IOT board?" so this is something I want!

Just as eMMC is provided on a snap-on module, it would be cool if we could get wifi as a snap-on module too. Many wifi chips use SDIO so it may even be possible to use the same connector the eMMC uses. Additionally, most of these SDIO wifi devices also provide Bluetooth.

Thoughts?
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:28 pm

As an interesting side note, I have been researching the popular and cheap ESP8266. Turns out its actually a ESP8089. The latter is important because it is a WiFI SDIO chip. It is possible to use both as a SDIO wifi device under linux.
https://github.com/al177/esp8089

This means a wifi card that hooks up to the eMMC connector could be both very cheap and very fast.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby XeoSal » Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:53 pm

crashoverride wrote:As an interesting side note, I have been researching the popular and cheap ESP8266. Turns out its actually a ESP8089. The latter is important because it is a WiFI SDIO chip. It is possible to use both as a SDIO wifi device under linux.
https://github.com/al177/esp8089

This means a wifi card that hooks up to the eMMC connector could be both very cheap and very fast.

This is a very nice idea, although I am not sure if it's gonna work reliably as expected, I actually hope that HK is willing to take these notes or at least consider some.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby elatllat » Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:42 pm

crashoverride wrote:...The story with RPi Zero is different...

Interesting.

crashoverride wrote:...RTC...security...WiFI...

What's wrong with freeradius?
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:26 pm

elatllat wrote:What's wrong with freeradius?

Nothing. It works very well.

Its trivial to spoof a SSID and BSSID of a any wifi access point. Both are transmitted un-encrypted in the clear. This means that if a fake base station is closer to your IoT device than the real base station, the IoT device will have no idea that its connecting to the fake. The solution is to use a mutual authentication protocol (EAP-TLS). The client can not trust the wifi ap until it authenticates it and the wifi ap can not trust the client until it authenticates it. In order for a client to validate the wifi ap, an authentication server such as FreeRADIUS sends its server certificate. Without a RTC, the client can not trust the certificate is valid. A fake wifi ap may be using an old certificate that was expired or revoked.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby elatllat » Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:21 am

crashoverride wrote:...A fake wifi ap may be using an old certificate that was expired or revoked...

AFAIK if you revoke your old certificates this is not an issue (the fake ap would need your and your CA's private certificate to fake a CRL), and the time is in the CRL so the IoT device knows if it's date is wrong.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:32 pm

Discussion of security exploits are outside the scope of this thread. Additionally, its not a point of conjecture that correct time and date are required to valid certificates: its well know fact and part of the design.

Furthermore, discussion about RTCs are also irrelevant to the Odroid C0 due to the fact that its guaranteed to have one since its part of the SoC. There is no debate that will change that.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby synportack24 » Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:32 am

Just out of curiosity are there any add-on style ('Hats', 'Shields', ect) board they think would be useful for the C0? I was thinking it might be kinda cool have like a motor-driver board with a few H-Bridge ICs on it.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby odroid » Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:02 pm

synportack24 wrote:Just out of curiosity are there any add-on style ('Hats', 'Shields', ect) board they think would be useful for the C0? I was thinking it might be kinda cool have like a motor-driver board with a few H-Bridge ICs on it.


I believe most of C1/RPi add-on boards are compatible with C0 too,
viewtopic.php?f=115&t=8181
This servo driver board also works with C0.
http://ameridroid.com/products/chroma-c1-servo-board

But you may need a high-power driver board for relatively higher-rated motors.
We also need a similar motor drivers to make this object fly more intelligently since each motor takes around 0.6~0.7Amp/3.7Volt. :twisted:

s_C0_drone_6.jpg
(106.16 KiB) Downloaded 6829 times
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:33 am

synportack24 wrote:I was thinking it might be kinda cool have like a motor-driver board with a few H-Bridge ICs on it.

I recently started working on a robot powered by C1. For the prototype I added a 2 motor H-bridge, a 9 axis accelerometer/gryo/compass, and an ultrasonic range sensor. I still need to add some servos and a display but I ran into design problems: the legacy RPi GPIO connector cripples the C1!

There is so much GPIO available on the S905, but the choice of the legacy RPI interface means that most of it is unavailable. This lead me to an interesting discovery: the audio DAC port is also GPIO! :D (of particular interested is that JTAG is now exposed there too)
This however does not solve the PWM/SPI problem. I need at at least two PWMs to drive the motors (and additional PWM for each servo); however, enabling the second PWM disables the SPI since its muxed on the same pin. Ideally, I want the 9 axis sensor and display on SPI. My plan now involves adding a cheap 16 channel PWM I2C module and leave the C1's PWM unused.

As part of my research for this project I discovered there will be a BeagleBone Blue soon. The IO perfectly fits my design requirements:
* (8) 6V servo/PWM out
* (4) DC motor controllers
* (4) rotary encoder inputs
* 9 axis IMU (accelerometer/gyro/compas)

The BeagleBone is limited in processing power compared to the C1. I intend to do LOTS of processing so I would rather have an addon board for C0/C1.

This brings me to the point of this post (finally):
I would like to see a Robotics board with the above specs for C0/C1. Does not matter who makes it (3rd party) as long as its cheaper and takes up less space than buying the individual break-out boards. Additionally, I would like to see a NON RPI GPIO connector used on a future C0+ that brings out more GPIO (so I can do more without having to add additional IO boards).

[My future plans involve adding a PS3 Eye camera and doing both audio and vision processing. The Eye camera is stupidly cheap and gives me a microphone array for beam forming to improve voice recognition]
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby /tmp » Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:00 pm

Please don't include onboard wifi if its a non GPL compliant wifi driver!
This is a huge mistake with developer boards and it will be wasted space
and cost to consumers.


These are some points I'm sure we all can agree on.

*Compact size
*power protection
*Charging circuit
*Battery circuit
*Energy consumption
*Heat displacement

motherboard layout is also important for proper heat spread and to reduce interference.

Lastly,
please don't rush on the C0, and It's great that your guys are accepting input!
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby rooted » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:57 pm

They don't only take suggestions, they actually implement them.

I suggested a jumper to allow the C1+ OTG port to function as the power supply line or OTG functionality, sure enough they implemented this in the latest C1+ revisions. Not to say they wouldn't have done this without my suggestion, really it was the only viable option.

I just want the device to have relative power, connectivity of some sort, diminutive size, and battery input. Oh and be as inexpensive as possible.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby synportack24 » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:01 am

crashoverride wrote:There is so much GPIO available on the S905, but the choice of the legacy RPI interface means that most of it is unavailable.

I agree, it's the same this with the silly arduino header with the strange offset. but annoyingly it's a pseudo standard. I think keeping it is good as it allows the use of a lot of pre-existing rpi hats. I think it would be cool if they had a second jumper section with additional i/o but by that point you're taking up a lot of board space.

crashoverride wrote:My future plans involve adding a PS3 Eye camera and doing both audio and vision processing. The Eye camera is stupidly cheap and gives me a microphone array for beam forming to improve voice recognition

I used a kinect for my master's thesis, I was killed by the state of the kinect linux drivers and openNI on ARM. Have you had any luck with 'the Eye'? I was thinking about picking up the kinect again for a robotic project with the C0 perhaps.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:54 pm

synportack24 wrote:I think keeping it is good as it allows the use of a lot of pre-existing rpi hats.

I think its worth keeping until a better design comes along. I have been looking into what a better design would be. The easy part is coming up with better pin layouts (groupings of power and functionality to make prototype cabling less of a rat's nest). I looked at using different connectors, different cables, and designs for "snap-on" adapters for legacy RPi compatibility. The problem is that they each added significant cost and/or diminished ease-of-prototyping. It seems nothing beats the current header design in that area. So that left me with just pin re-assignments. The benefit of which, at the cost of breaking hardware compatibility, did not seem to justify a change.

Boards like 96Boards, $9 Chip, and BeagleBone already use a different GPIO connector. The BeagleBone "cape" world has managed to thrive despite lack of a RPi connector. It seems the merits of a change come down to the desires of the customer base. It certainly makes more sense for a C0 IoT board to offer more GPIO than it does for the C1+. However, its not ideal to have different connectors among products from a vendor. The XU3/4 seems to confirm this with the release of the Shifter Shield.

synportack24 wrote:Have you had any luck with 'the Eye'?

I only recently placed the order and have not received it yet.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby synportack24 » Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:00 am

crashoverride wrote: I have been looking into what a better design would be. The easy part is coming up with better pin layouts (groupings of power and functionality to make prototype cabling less of a rat's nest).

The BeagleBone's GPIO layout is very well thought out, honestly the beaglebone it's self is very well done for heavy GPIO usage.

crashoverride wrote:It certainly makes more sense for a C0 IoT board to offer more GPIO than it does for the C1+. However, its not ideal to have different connectors among products from a vendor.

They could take on a few extra pins to the end of the 40pin jumper make it a 46/48/50 pin connector. Good way to add extra GPIO and still keep the rpi layout.

crashoverride wrote:The XU3/4 seems to confirm this with the release of the Shifter Shield.

Not sure how useful the GPIO pins on the XU3/4 are without the shifter shield, 1.8v with a strange (non 0.1") is nice but many 'hobby' devices use 3.3v and 5v. I do wish that shield was able to source a bit more current though. The 4ma limit almost kills it for me, it's not even enough to dimly lit a LED :cry: Please keep this in mind for future boards Hardkernel~~~~
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:29 am

There is a youtube video of the flying C0:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7IOqXjtZ_E


crashoverride wrote:I only recently placed the order and have not received it yet.

I finally received the PS3 Eye and I am really impressed with it. I understand now why so many use it for their computer vision projects. Its the most amazing 640x480 camera I have seen (can't beat the $5.00USD price either).
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby Digimaster » Mon Feb 08, 2016 5:46 pm

crashoverride wrote: Its the most amazing 640x480 camera I have seen (can't beat the $5.00USD price either).


Could you please post some frame shots from the camera. Especially interesting is low light conditions.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby odroid » Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:01 pm

rooted wrote:They don't only take suggestions, they actually implement them.

I suggested a jumper to allow the C1+ OTG port to function as the power supply line or OTG functionality, sure enough they implemented this in the latest C1+ revisions. Not to say they wouldn't have done this without my suggestion, really it was the only viable option.

I just want the device to have relative power, connectivity of some sort, diminutive size, and battery input. Oh and be as inexpensive as possible.


Refer this link to enable the USB device mode. It needs a wiring.
http://odroid.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id= ... _odroid-c0
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby rooted » Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:16 pm

odroid wrote:
rooted wrote:They don't only take suggestions, they actually implement them.

I suggested a jumper to allow the C1+ OTG port to function as the power supply line or OTG functionality, sure enough they implemented this in the latest C1+ revisions. Not to say they wouldn't have done this without my suggestion, really it was the only viable option.

I just want the device to have relative power, connectivity of some sort, diminutive size, and battery input. Oh and be as inexpensive as possible.


Refer this link to enable the USB device mode. It needs a wiring.
http://odroid.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id= ... _odroid-c0

I haven't actually gotten the C0 yet odroid, my son wants to build a quadcopter with me but I'm not sure he will dedicate himself to a complex project. If he promises to commit I will order one.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby crashoverride » Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:57 am

Digimaster wrote:Could you please post some frame shots from the camera. Especially interesting is low light conditions.

Sorry for the late reply. I did not see the post.

The camera was designed by Sony to work with "TV set illumination" so it performs very well in low light conditions. I do not have any frame shots to share. Low light frame shots look like a normal light frame shot so there really is no way to show performance without light lux measurement which I am currently not setup for.
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Re: ODROID C0 - What do you want in a typical IOT board?

Unread postby rooted » Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:19 am

crashoverride wrote:
Digimaster wrote:Could you please post some frame shots from the camera. Especially interesting is low light conditions.

Sorry for the late reply. I did not see the post.

The camera was designed by Sony to work with "TV set illumination" so it performs very well in low light conditions. I do not have any frame shots to share. Low light frame shots look like a normal light frame shot so there really is no way to show performance without light lux measurement which I am currently not setup for.

Most all smartphones have a light sensor.
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