Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby fvolk » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:05 pm

tkaiser wrote:Which CPU did you use?


a 35W model, a 7700T
obviously not one I would put into a NAS-like server ;-) -> does anyone know the idle power draw of a cheap model?
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby tkaiser » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:29 pm

fvolk wrote:
tkaiser wrote:Which CPU did you use?


a 35W model, a 7700T
obviously not one I would put into a NAS-like server ;-) -> does anyone know the idle power draw of a cheap model?


IMO there's nothing wrong with such a CPU if the NAS should also do what many people today expect from a 'NAS': Also able to be used for virtualization/containerization, video transcoding and so on.

Just tried it with my MacBook Pro (15" 2017 model with 16 GB PC3-17000 LPDDR3 and a slightly slower i7-7700HQ compared to your 7000T): 5.1W USB-C PSU included in a rather useless headless idle mode (Wi-Fi and display disabled, not even 15 apps active). With an USB-C RTL8153 and GbE connected it's 1.1W more (both RTL8153 and switch are IEEE 802.3az capable).
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby ujsrwidc » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:57 pm

Would there be coreboot or U-Boot support for it? I am not interested into closed source UEFI things.
Does this thing have Intel Management Engine ( ME )? I hope not.

Can it run without shutting itself off after 30 Minutes when running just free software? https://puri.sm/learn/intel-me/
Those purism librem devices sadly cant. They have to keep closed source parts on their memory :cry:
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby fvolk » Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:52 am

tkaiser wrote:IMO there's nothing wrong with such a CPU if the NAS should also do what many people today expect from a 'NAS': Also able to be used for virtualization/containerization, video transcoding and so on.


When I think of NAS I think of fileserver and a HC1/2 is doing this just fine. But yes, a 7700T is in there because I use it as server on-the-go. Laptop+DeskMini fit into a backpack and I can take it to customers, put it on the meeting table and am independent of available Internet access and local infrastructure etc. People are surprised when they notice it packs quite a punch :-)

But back to the original thinking, where is the position of the H2 in the market and why buy it instead of the other options?

On the low end C2/XU4/HC1/HC2 serve the basic needs. You need to move up if you need more power, more storage or x86 compatibility.
On the higher end the DeskMinis are still small and pack as much power and storage you want/need. Comes with nice case and power supply. Unfortunately Intel CPUs are currently expensive.
Between those two families.... hmmm.

Zotac ZBox: good: 2x Network and passive cooling. CI323 worked for some as firewall, for others not. I tried the CI327 and it always fell over under heavy load, could not get it stable, sold it. And the CI327 model with M2 SSD only came bundled with Win, and the M2 then was not accessible too. The CI329... is new, anyone with experiences? If fan is ok, there are more models.

Intel NUC. Smaller, various models, plug&play, but the heat has to go somewhere, so fan, and limited slots due to size.

Gigabyte Brix: only 4 models without fan, of those 2 with 2xLAN. Only two with 2x 2.5 slots. Don't know why buy that.

Odroid H2: Passive, dual network, dual SATA AND M.2.
If CPU speed is good enough or you need x86 compatibility and no-fan is important, buy it. You have to like the cases.
If need dual network, why not buy ZBOX CI329 instead?
If need storage, why not buy DeskMini instead, it comes with nice case?

...I don't yet see for me the decision for the H2. No CSM in BIOS is bad. No nice, small, passive tower case for 2x 2.5". I don't need the 2xLAN.
But I'll still probably buy one to tinker with over Christmas holidays :-)
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby back2future » Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:49 am

ujsrwidc wrote:Would there be coreboot or U-Boot support for it? I am not interested into closed source UEFI things.
Does this thing have Intel Management Engine ( ME )? I hope not.

Can it run without shutting itself off after 30 Minutes when running just free software? https://puri.sm/learn/intel-me/
Those purism librem devices sadly cant. They have to keep closed source parts on their memory :cry:


Is American Megatrend 2.19.1268 (UEFI vrs. 2.6, PXE bootable) closed source ¹ only?
Compared to u-boot or coreboot one recognizes different priorities: Read yourself ( _https://ami.com/en/download-license-agreement/?DownloadFile=Aptio_V_AMI_Firmware_Update_Utility.zip ).
No legacy support will require signed kernels? Will there be a manual or faq for these questions?
Aptio (V or 4) Setup Utility seems to have copyright limitation.

[1) https://ami.com/en/support/bios-uefi-firmware-support/
2) tianocore.org https://www.tianocore.org/contrib/
github.com/tianocore https://github.com/tianocore/tianocore. ... FI#Warning ]
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby brad » Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:48 am

tkaiser wrote:Then you need to do some detective work to get an M.2 E key Wi-Fi card that only uses PCIe and not also USB/UART since the latter protocols not being routed to the M.2 connector on the H2. For some E key cards that will result in Wi-Fi working but Bluetooth not for example.


So on the odroid H2 only the PCIe lanes would be available on the M2 interface? Audio, PCM, USB, I2c would all be nativity interconnected elsewhere on the board?

I mentioned previously my interest in low latency audio (many pcie audio cards are available and also some mpcie) so I could most likely make something work nicely which has decent interfaces, including ADC's / DAC's. There are not a lot of audio based M.2 cards but it appears they are starting to show up. There are also some M.2 firewire cards which might be a solution or even M.2 to USB-C cards which might be an alternative communication interface.

I am also looking at machine control (once again low latency, low throughput communication) and there are manufactures producing serial cards for M.2 and even parallel cards for mpcie interface. I guess it should not be long before a M.2 parellel card appears.

This brings me to a new question. Are we likely to see an arm64 board (hint the N2) with pcie lanes exposed and not routed to the SATA? N2 / arm64 should be more cost effective for my purposes than Intel.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby Nuems » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:23 pm

Using (wasting?) M.2 for parallel or serial communication seems fairly exotic. Is there really any advantage over the respective usb adapters? I'd really be surprised to learn about anything produced in this century that requires a low latency parallel port (that is, if such a thing has ever existed).
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby brad » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:06 pm

Nuems wrote:Using (wasting?) M.2 for parallel or serial communication seems fairly exotic. Is there really any advantage over the respective usb adapters? I'd really be surprised to learn about anything produced in this century that requires a low latency parallel port (that is, if such a thing has ever existed).


The M.2 spec does parallel and serial communications very well, USB protocol is designed to be shared and cache data in chunks rather than being a true (realtime) bus. This makes M.2 more desirable for these types of scenarios even if they are somewhat "exotic" at the moment.

Machinekit - http://www.machinekit.io/ is a good start for understanding some of the Linux based solutions, be they cnc or other robots. There are some other open source solutions and many closed source.

Ideally I want a system that can control a fast closed loop system for realtime with no disruptions. Thinking future and closed loop servo motors rather than steppers for lightness and power. M.2 / pcie works but USB.x does not.

After all the M.2 is just a big fast serial/parallel port which runs nice frequencies :) And on the H2 there is emmc, usb or sata for storage of the lightweight control code. If N2 had access to pcie lanes it might do the same thing with less power...
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby tkaiser » Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:23 pm

brad wrote:
tkaiser wrote:Then you need to do some detective work to get an M.2 E key Wi-Fi card that only uses PCIe and not also USB/UART since the latter protocols not being routed to the M.2 connector on the H2. For some E key cards that will result in Wi-Fi working but Bluetooth not for example.


So on the odroid H2 only the PCIe lanes would be available on the M2 interface?


Exactly. It's key M that could theoretically also carry other signals but in this case it's PCIe only AKA 'only for NVMe SSDs'. If you know what you do and are ready for adapters/extenders you can do other stuff with the available PCIe lanes too.

BTW: You need to be very careful wrt the features and protocol capabilities since:

brad wrote:even M.2 to USB-C cards which might be an alternative communication interface ... serial cards for M.2 ... pcie lanes exposed and not routed to the SATA


M.2 is a universal socket and USB-C is an universal connector. Both can carry a bunch of totally different protocols. What you list above might exist but will not work in the way you imagine...

* 'M.2 to USB-C cards' might exist but then they would either pass-thru USB which won't work here or 'pass-thru' PCIe which would be called Thunderbolt 3 and most probably won't work here too or need to use a PCIe attached USB host controller to provide more USB ports (host interface M.2, device interface USB-C). All I know wrt M.2 <--> USB-C is the opposite: host interface USB-C and device interface M.2. In the past this existed to attach only M.2 SATA SSDs via a USB-to-SATA bridge in those thingies (negatively affecting sequential and random IO performance and especially latency), in the meantime also USB-C enclosures for NVMe SSDs exist which is just a joke since the USB-to-NVMe bridge totally destroys random IO performance and especially latency. But since consumers are kept clueless by tests and reviews constantly only focusing on mostly irrelevant sequential transfer speeds a lot of people think that an USB attached NVMe SSD would be a great idea

* 'M.2 serial cards' are most probably key E only (doesn't fit on the H2 and won't work with simple adapters) and contain only a level shifter using the UART provided directly by the host CPU: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.2#Form_ ... and_keying (most probably no PCIe controller on the card)

* SATA and PCIe are two entirely different protocols. You can not route PCIe to a SATA port or at least it won't work then. But what's possible is to provide an M.2 slot and route both PCIe and SATA there and then provide an option (in UEFI/BIOS) to switch between them. That's how the aforementioned Gigabyte Brix does it: the key M slot there allows to either route one SATA lane to M.2 or 2 PCIe lanes. This is only an advantage if you have an M.2 SATA SSD already since on the Gigabyte you can insert and use it unlike on the H2 but this is also a disadvantage if you want to use an NVMe SSD since with the Brix the interface will only be half as wide/fast as on the H2 (2 lanes vs. 4 lanes)

TL;DR: Only 4 PCIe lanes are available on H2's M.2 slot. So without any tinkering only NVMe SSDs are what will work in this slot and tinkerers wanting to use the PCIe lanes for something else need to have in mind that this is a x4 configuration that most probably can not be changed to eg. 2 x x2 or 4 x x1. In other words: without a PCIe multiplexer/switch only one single PCIe controller will work here.

Wrt ARM based N2 and PCIe lanes: https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/Knowled ... v8_SoCs.md (unless Hardkernel still evaluates a currently unknown SoC your options wrt multiple lanes are rather limited)
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby ujsrwidc » Sun Nov 04, 2018 8:46 pm

back2future wrote:
ujsrwidc wrote:Would there be coreboot or U-Boot support for it? I am not interested into closed source UEFI things.
Does this thing have Intel Management Engine ( ME )? I hope not.

Can it run without shutting itself off after 30 Minutes when running just free software? https://puri.sm/learn/intel-me/
Those purism librem devices sadly cant. They have to keep closed source parts on their memory :cry:


Is American Megatrend 2.19.1268 (UEFI vrs. 2.6, PXE bootable) closed source ¹ only?
Compared to u-boot or coreboot one recognizes different priorities: Read yourself ( _https://ami.com/en/download-license-agreement/?DownloadFile=Aptio_V_AMI_Firmware_Update_Utility.zip ).
No legacy support will require signed kernels? Will there be a manual or faq for these questions?
Aptio (V or 4) Setup Utility seems to have copyright limitation.

[1) https://ami.com/en/support/bios-uefi-firmware-support/
2) tianocore.org https://www.tianocore.org/contrib/
github.com/tianocore https://github.com/tianocore/tianocore. ... FI#Warning ]


Yes, AMI is a usual name for company creating proprietary closed source BIOS/UEFI/Firmware implementation.
Why did you link me a firmware update utility? The OpenSource Firmware update utility for nerds is named Flashrom. For typical endusers its named fwupd ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fwupd )
You asked about signing kernels. You can use in coreboot TPM to sign your kernels if you like. You dont have to sign anything in coreboot when you dont want to. When you sign your installed system with coreboots TPM implementation, than you can be happy of having a temper proof system when the system is been turned off. There are some talks on video about that online if you want to learn more or just read the documentation.
Tianocore is something you can use as a payload in coreboot if you want UEFI. Normaly you dont really need UEFI for typical usecases - so keep your BIOS-chip clean and the software on it as tiny as possible. Everyone knows the basic statistics of how much errors a human is making when creating a bigger amount of code. So just keep your boot-software tiny and opensource. This is what there should be seen in this new x86 odroid board - full freedom.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby fvolk » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:08 pm

tkaiser wrote:also USB-C enclosures for NVMe SSDs exist which is just a joke since the USB-to-NVMe bridge totally destroys random IO performance and especially latency. But since consumers are kept clueless by tests and reviews constantly only focusing on mostly irrelevant sequential transfer speeds a lot of people think that an USB attached NVMe SSD would be a great idea


Funny, actually right now I have a NVMe M2 SSD in front of me and no M2 slot to put it in, I would really like to have such an external USB case to access the data on it, performance does not matter. Bonus points if its bootable like a normal external USB drive. (And as you seem to know the market, if you can recommend me one that's not the worst one...)
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby tkaiser » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:26 pm

ujsrwidc wrote:This is what there should be seen in this new x86 odroid board - full freedom.


Why should this change now? AFAIK none of the ARM based ODROIDs so far was able to boot without proprietary BLOBs. But of course I agree and getting rid of both the ME and UEFI would be a huge bonus for people wanting to control the hardware they own. But even without UEFI there always have been and are 'issues': https://forum.armbian.com/topic/7552-ro ... ment=61784

fvolk wrote:if you can recommend me one that's not the worst one


AFAIK there's still only the JMS583: http://www.thessdreview.com/ces-2018/jm ... ei-update/

So all available enclosures perform identical but as already mentioned multiple times here in this thread: With fast NVMe SSDs the 'thermal performance' is the most important thing. Without improved heat dissipation or for example in a small plastics enclosure any NVMe SSD will throttle down to insanely low values. That's why the thermal design matters more than anything else as soon as you want to use such a NVMe SSD over longer periods of time than just a few seconds.

The cheap JEYI stuff on Aliexpress partially takes care of this, later way more expensive enclosures from renowed brands like e.g. Belkin or Startech based on the same chip but with better thermal design might follow (and from them usually you'll also get firmware updates later)
Last edited by tkaiser on Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby back2future » Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:33 pm

ujsrwidc wrote:Yes, AMI is a usual name for company creating proprietary closed source BIOS/UEFI/Firmware implementation.
Why did you link me a firmware update utility? The OpenSource Firmware update utility for nerds is named Flashrom. For typical endusers its named fwupd ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fwupd )
You asked about signing kernels. You can use in coreboot TPM to sign your kernels if you like. You dont have to sign anything in coreboot when you dont want to. When you sign your installed system with coreboots TPM implementation, than you can be happy of having a temper proof system when the system is been turned off. There are some talks on video about that online if you want to learn more or just read the documentation.
Tianocore is something you can use as a payload in coreboot if you want UEFI. Normaly you dont really need UEFI for typical usecases - so keep your BIOS-chip clean and the software on it as tiny as possible. Everyone knows the basic statistics of how much errors a human is making when creating a bigger amount of code. So just keep your boot-software tiny and opensource. This is what there should be seen in this new x86 odroid board - full freedom.


Yes, thx,
Aptio_V_AMI_Firmware_Update_Utility.zip for example includes several UserGuides for firmware(, firmware) and how to flash. Getting that file needs accepting their license conditions (modified link to _http, so no direct access), no git or 'GPLv2 only'->tivoizationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoization<-'GPL3'. Different, considering freedom of wide support, although they provide 24/7 firmware compiling? ("SVN source code access") for business customers.
UEFI Shell¹ provides hardware access by terminal, before loading/initializing a kernel. Recognized EFI first with OLPC.
While prefering coreboot, because of versatile simplicity, u-boot includes UEFI API since 2017.

Considering a trusted environment, EFI Shell offers (network) possibilities, while coreboot starts an (bo(o)tloader/)os (without 'breakpoint'), (if TPM(2.0) is country-wise limited).
viewtopic.php?p=236119#p236119

What kind of kernel (unsigned?) are accepted on H2? (later on N2?)


[1) "UEFI Shell
The UEFI Shell is a shell/terminal for the firmware which allows launching EFI applications which include UEFI bootloaders. Apart from that, the shell can also be used to obtain various other information about the system or the firmware like memory map (memmap), modifying boot manager variables (bcfg), running partitioning programs (diskpart), loading UEFI drivers, editing text files (edit), hexedit etc."
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Un ... UEFI_Shell
2) https://coreboot.org/Code_of_Conduct ]
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby ujsrwidc » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:01 pm

back2future wrote:Aptio_V_AMI_Firmware_Update_Utility.zip for example includes several UserGuides for firmware(, firmware) and how to flash.

That is never really an deal-breaker issue. When there is hard write protection set, then you can flash only external and no software can write the write protected parts (look at the Lenovo Thinkpad after the x200 series). When the SPI chip is not hardware-write protected, then you can use Flashrom. Missing ability to flash an SPI chip is the lowest of the lowest issues for freedom. When there is fully free software available, then the lowest problem is the ability to install it. Intel is blocking the people of getting to this point thanks to their 30minute hardware-shutdown timer and so on.

tkaiser wrote:Why should this change now? AFAIK none of the ARM based ODROIDs so far was able to boot without proprietary BLOBs.


?? Have you missed the big work of Neil Armstrong, Jerome Brunet and many other people from the company named https://baylibre.com/ ? Next to your username is written that you have a Odroid C2 with the S905 chipset. Does this image here not work on your C2? https://dl.armbian.com/odroidc2/Debian_ ... desktop.7z
The linked image should be running with the opensource https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/lima/linux driver.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby tkaiser » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:32 pm

ujsrwidc wrote:Does this image here not work on your C2? https://dl.armbian.com/odroidc2/Debian_ ... desktop.7z


It does work thanks to this bunch of proprietary (closed source) BLOBs: https://github.com/armbian/build/blob/m ... oidc2.conf

You can't run any Amlogic SoC without closed source BLOBs since not even DRAM will be initialized so none of these SoCs will even execute a bootloader like u-boot. And these BLOBs loading a firmware to the SoC contained Cortex-M core(s) later on control the hardware down to a level they cheat on the kernel wrt cpufreq (the kernel reporting 2.0 GHz while in reality it's just 1.5 GHz). And the same is true for almost all other ARM SoCs as well.

BTW: Hardkernel are the only ones who got a firmware BLOB from Amlogic that does not cheat wrt clockspeeds. Android box vendors and their 'competitor' FriendlyELEC only get the usual cheating BLOBs. Compare numbers of C2 with NanoPi K2 here (both S905 based): https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/sbc-ben ... Results.md

ujsrwidc wrote:The linked image should be running with the opensource https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/lima/linux driver.


Why? And who cares about Mali/lima and this graphics stuff? I thought it was about firmwares/BLOBs that control the hardware not some rather boring 3D stuff a lot of people don't need anyway?
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby ujsrwidc » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:58 pm

tkaiser wrote:Why? And who cares about Mali/lima and this graphics stuff? I thought it was about firmwares/BLOBs that control the hardware not some rather boring 3D stuff a lot of people don't need anyway?


Because you need Wayland for a secure system. https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/s ... d-systems/

And Wayland require some OpenGL stuff: https://tech.slashdot.org/story/12/10/2 ... ux-desktop

And when my mom wants to watch youtube, then she probably need some acceleration because 1080p60 dont work that great on cpu-only. And i dont want to let my mom use insecure systems for all her private things on her computer. So probably the answer to your question "And who cares about Mali/lima and this graphics stuff?" is "my mom cares about Mali/lima graphics stuff.".


Thanks for the additional information. I would look into the ram initialization for amlogic.
What closed source parts are required on i.mx6 to boot up?
A full solution to all things could be the RISC-V. I would be happy when i see x86 going down and RISC-V rising up.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby back2future » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:10 am

Is that work on security paid with cpu or SoC prices we, like many, want?

[ L1TF https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/KnowledgeBase/L1TF
Code: Select all
cat /sys/devices/system/cpu/vulnerabilities/l1tf
]
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby ujsrwidc » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:22 am

No. I spend my free time on looking at system security and dont care about financial things in my life. This would be too much off topic. There are free books all over the internet with such information about this sort of life.

Yes, a higher asking price for secure systems would not be bad. Recently you cant go into a regular store and buy some modern device that have a browser for internet access without someone doing closed source crap on the device for trying/hoping to "earn more money". This have to stop. This produce millions of tons of electronic waste each year because of some crappy software issue there is no opensource solution for it. You would see this in the future with the nvidia crap they produce since the 900 series where the ASIC itself does a signature check and only nvidia have the private key. This have to stop. It should be illegal to lock out people of devices they buy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuAMczraBIM Solution -> Open hardware manual and delivery of parts to everyone by "sono motors".
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby tkaiser » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:40 am

ujsrwidc wrote:my mom wants to watch youtube, then she probably need some acceleration


Here comes Amlogic's video engine into play (something entirely different than the Mali GPU). Since Libre Computer sponsors this work BayLibre is soon about to release fully open source components to play video on Amlogic S905X/S805X and most probably then also S905/S912. Even HW accelerated in Chromium if I understood https://www.cnx-software.com/2018/10/12 ... ine-linux/ correctly. But it doesn't change a bit that you can't boot any Amlogic SoC without BLOBs controlling main aspects of the hardware.

ujsrwidc wrote:What closed source parts are required on i.mx6 to boot up?


AFAIK none any more with upstream u-boot. And the same is true for Allwinner (there also is a co-processor -- OpenRISC -- contained with low-level access to hardware and Allwinner's own u-boot/kernel use this one to implement 'suspend to RAM' and power management but with mainline u-boot/kernel you can run BLOB free).

Anyway: I just wanted to throw into the discussion that the situation on ARM is not that great compared to x86 since a lot of people concerned about ME/UEFI always say 'look at ARM -- everything open source there'. Worst example is IMO the Raspberry Pi where 'concerned' users focus on irrelevant BS like open source OpenGL drivers but totally forget that each and every RPi runs ThreadX as primary operating system on the VC4 before any secondary OS can even start on the guest processors (the ARM cores). ThreadX is BTW the same OS Intel used in early Management Engine variants :)
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby ujsrwidc » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:01 am

HUGE thanks for this explaination.
Yes, i dont like broadcom by default. Their wifi chipsets for laptops are closed source crap and i knew what you told about the raspberry pi and thats why i never had one and never recommend one.
I would like to continue this talk, but thats a bit offtopic in this thread.

tkaiser, maybe you would like to continue the talk here: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=32673
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby Nuems » Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:45 pm

@brad
Sorry, I got you wrong about parallel and serial connections. I was under the impression that you were talking about IEEE-1284/RS232. My bad.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby brad » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:25 pm

tkaiser wrote:TL;DR: Only 4 PCIe lanes are available on H2's M.2 slot. So without any tinkering only NVMe SSDs are what will work in this slot and tinkerers wanting to use the PCIe lanes for something else need to have in mind that this is a x4 configuration that most probably can not be changed to eg. 2 x x2 or 4 x x1. In other words: without a PCIe multiplexer/switch only one single PCIe controller will work here.

Wrt ARM based N2 and PCIe lanes: https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/Knowled ... v8_SoCs.md (unless Hardkernel still evaluates a currently unknown SoC your options wrt multiple lanes are rather limited)


Thanks for the info, very helpful. The cards I was looking at appear to be M keyed (2 port ones are keyed either(B or M) eg: https://www.shentek.com/product/4-port- ... card-2280/

This is not exactly what I want though, 1x lane should be enough with some multiplexing to at least get a parallel port so I can multiplex more than 4 channels. Something like this but interfaced to M.2 socket - https://diarts-tech.com/product/1-port- ... pcie-card/
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby brad » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:52 pm

Nuems wrote:@brad
Sorry, I got you wrong about parallel and serial connections. I was under the impression that you were talking about IEEE-1284/RS232. My bad.


I'm after a parallel port initially to integrate with machinekit - http://www.machinekit.io/docs/hal/paral ... t/#parport

Down the track upgrading to servo motors I would need something more, there are also some cards that support low layer ethernet connection but not sure how well 1 of the realteks on the H2 would work with them. eg: https://www.nvcnc.net/nvem.html
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby elatllat » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:28 pm

AFAIK there is no fully functional computer without
ujsrwidc wrote:...closed source...

code to make it work.
(eg)
Maybe when/if the industry stabilizes.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby tkaiser » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:40 pm

brad wrote:The cards I was looking at appear to be M keyed (2 port ones are keyed either(B or M) eg: https://www.shentek.com/product/4-port- ... card-2280/


Yeah, this one will work directly on the H2 (but of course also on a NanoPC-T4 -- just mentioning since you were talking about ARM being most probably more energy efficient, at least with my PC-T4 that was not the case: https://forum.armbian.com/topic/7498-nanopc-t4/)

brad wrote:This is not exactly what I want though, 1x lane should be enough with some multiplexing to at least get a parallel port so I can multiplex more than 4 channels. Something like this but interfaced to M.2 socket - https://diarts-tech.com/product/1-port- ... pcie-card/


The most recent Clearfog Base boards feature one mPCIe slot and one M.2 slot that can now be switched between SATA and PCIe (my 3 years old Clearfog unfortunately only has SATA routed to the M.2 slot there but on the other hand there are 2 mPCIe slots there which can be switched between SATA and PCIe). But those Clearfogs are also not that energy efficient which shouldn't surprise by looking at the count of high-speed PHYs/interfaces they provide...
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby ujsrwidc » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:28 am

elatllat wrote:AFAIK there is no fully functional computer without
ujsrwidc wrote:...closed source...

code to make it work.
(eg)
Maybe when/if the industry stabilizes.


Can you name the closed source parts i need to run on a Libreboot X200 or on a i.mx6(or i.mx8)+vivante gpu?
For some reasons you list a h-node.org link to a ASUS C201 device with a broadcom wifi and a GPU no with recently non existent free driver. Of course broadcom wifi cant run free software. Thats why you always use ath5k or ath9k wifi compatible card.

What industry have to stabilize?? I really dont get your point and dont understand why you list a known non free software notebook.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby rooted » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:08 am

ujsrwidc wrote:Thats why you always use ath5k or ath9k wifi compatible card.


These don't require firmware?
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby elatllat » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:25 am

ujsrwidc wrote:I really don't get your point...

My point is when I go looking for a Libre computer, the first thing I find is a website dedicated to the task but with no actual candidates.

ujsrwidc wrote:...Libreboot X200...

is interesting but is to old(2008) and low end (1280×800, etc) for my use.
I'd fall back on system76 for lack of a better option.


ujsrwidc wrote:... i.mx8...

The hummingboard pulse is the SBC I found with that SOC but the community is dead.
If you happen to have one please PM/post/link me the
Code: Select all
cryptsetup benchmark

results.
Last edited by elatllat on Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby ujsrwidc » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:01 am

You cant fully remove the ME from the newer intel devices and that would probably be the case with this new board written in the first post. Thats why i worte about this issue in this thread and put my idea here: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=32673

What should this System76 be at ANY kind special in the talk of free software?? I dont even see any coreboot support. What should those things be about the points we are talking about? I dont get the feeling we are talking at a level here...

If you have money to spend and accept a stripped down and disable-bit-set Intel ME, then you can take a look at 51nb - X330 and modify it with free software on your own. The 51nb x330 should still be better for maintainability and many other things then the devices from https://puri.sm/

You can also have a look at the RISC-V board here when you dont care about money: https://www.crowdsupply.com/sifive/hifive-unleashed
It runs quake 2 - what else did you need :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8jqGOgCy5M
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby stmicro » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:12 am

I wanna buy a couple of H2 boards.
When do you guys start selling? When do you unveil the price and shipping date?
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby odroid » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:37 am

stmicro wrote:I wanna buy a couple of H2 boards.
When do you guys start selling? When do you unveil the price and shipping date?


We will start the manufacturing process within a few days.
If everything goes well, we will start selling from November 20th and the first shipping date will be November 27th.
The price information will be available on November 20th too.
Please wait two more weeks.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby gkkpch » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:38 pm

When ordering from the 20th, does that need to be from hardkernel directly or will we be able to order from suppliers like pollin.de at around the same time?
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby BadPritt » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:22 am

@odroid
Any news on when we can expect more info on the N2 please?
You've made me so curious about the A73 cores. I can't wait to know the true specs.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby msperl » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:26 am

What is the power supply requirements? 12v/?a or laptop style 19v/?A or something else ? (Voltage range maybe?)
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby DanielBull » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:52 am

I believe its 14v to 20v, which is the PSU standard used on Thin ITX computers such as the all in ones (where the computer is built into the screen) and various other small computers including some laptops.

Its becoming really common now and easy to obtain, usually the power packs you get are usually 19v.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby elatllat » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:44 am

BadPritt wrote:... N2 ... so curious ... A73 ...

The Snapdragons using the A73 are now 3 generations old and maybe affordable... or maybe MediaTek or HiSilicon... :twisted:
I hope meveric, crashoverride, and memeka get boards in advance so everyone else can benefit from gl4es, video and, wayland support..
Kernel 4.20 has some new big-little support in it but it's not LTS, so maybe backport it to 4.9 for the first year...
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby tkaiser » Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:15 am

elatllat wrote:
BadPritt wrote:... N2 ... so curious ... A73 ...

... HiSilicon...


Oh, HiSilicon would be great. Last year Jon Smirl tried to raise attention for their superior SoCs and I downloaded an HiSilicon SDK somewhere (seriously: there is no NDA drama -- only for the company who signed it). AMAZING!

Literally everything was covered even the benchmarking stuff in SOHO, home and stupid domains. Just great.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby fvolk » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:11 pm

Does anyone have experiences how the Atom-based core differs from the Core-based CPUs in practice?
Does all software work out of the box or are some some instructions/opcodes missing so certain software has to be recompiled first?
Is it necessary (or beneficial) to tune a kernel to the Atom profile?
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby tmihai20 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:51 pm

@fvolk: there are some optimizations that are specific for Atom cores. Theoretically code that is compiled for Core CPUs should run without problems on Atom CPUs, I have done this before because of work (dirty shortcut). There are more optimizations needed on the GPU side, though.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby ASword » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:53 am

fvolk wrote:Does anyone have experiences how the Atom-based core differs from the Core-based CPUs in practice?
Does all software work out of the box or are some some instructions/opcodes missing so certain software has to be recompiled first?
Is it necessary (or beneficial) to tune a kernel to the Atom profile?


In practice, this is complicated. Generally with normal settings on the compiler the Atoms will run the same instructions as the Core processors. There are a lot of optional instructions these days, so if the software was compiled with the options to take advantage of these then it will crash on any processor that doesn't have them. There are ways to build software to detect what instructions a processor has and provide multiple options in the same executable, and choose appropriately at runtime, however this takes work and is usually not done. To avoid these sorts of problems, most software is compiled fairly generically and it doesn't try to use fancy new instructions (and consequentially doesn't get the performance boosts that they might offer). To be more concrete, the SIMD instruction sets of x86/x64 are a useful example. All x64 enabled processors, I believe, support SSE4.2. In the last decade or so, however, Intel has rolled out AVX, AVX2, AVX512, FMA, and a bunch of other extensions. These instructions offer tremendous improvements in floating point (and other) capabilities, however if you compile your program with those options turned on, it will not work on the Atom processors because they only support SSE4.2 (ignoring the oddity of the Xeon Phi Knight's Landing which was built on an Atom core but was the first to get AVX512 support).

In addition to optional instructions, there is also the issue of how instructions are scheduled. Here the Atoms are different than the Core series. They are narrower issues and only recently started to become out-of-order. Their pipeline lengths and cache latencies also differ. So even if you aren't compiling with certain instructions enabled, asking the compiler to tune for a particular core can deliver some amount of optimization. It will still run on other processors, just not as fast as it could if it were optimized specifically for them. The default setting of a compiler is usually an attempt to get good performance everywhere.

For a large amount of software, none of this matters at all. The bottlenecks are elsewhere (including the human). For compute intensive software (games, deep learning, cryptocurrency mining, HPC, ...) this can make a very substantial difference. In those cases you may want to carefully tune your compiler settings for your specific hardware. Some programming models are JIT-based, and (the good ones, anyhow) will tune for the hardware they find themselves running on. Intel's OpenCL implementation is quite good at this. Most GPU code is compiled JIT as they don't generally expose the ISA directly.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby Ronaldleess » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:05 am

I had completely switched my home computing over to Odroid ARM, thinking that I was leaving the bad old architecture(s) behind for good. But, after a year or so of being Intel and AMD free, I've found some gaps in my computing coverage. For instance, I'd like to run Davinci Resolve for video, and maybe some Natron too. I wonder how the GPU is going to be set up on the new board. Maybe I can have one or a few of the "bad old arch" boards to fill the gaps I've found.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby Ronaldleess » Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:10 am

ujsrwidc wrote:You can also have a look at the RISC-V board here when you dont care about money: https://www.crowdsupply.com/sifive/hifive-unleashed
It runs quake 2 - what else did you need :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8jqGOgCy5M


I looked at the RISC-V offering, and in many ways it was tempting. If (for the same price) - it had on-board video, I'd have bitten. But, unless you add video separately, you're limited to the serial console. I don't understand that - it seems that even a cheapo video on-board would have made the thing much more attractive.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby back2future » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:17 am

odroid wrote:
stmicro wrote:I wanna buy a couple of H2 boards.
When do you guys start selling? When do you unveil the price and shipping date?


We will start the manufacturing process within a few days.
If everything goes well, we will start selling from November 20th and the first shipping date will be November 27th.
The price information will be available on November 20th too.
Please wait two more weeks.


What are Your expectations on manufacturing process and selling for next 5 years?
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby rooted » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:34 am

Seems to me DMIPS of Core vs Atom would be a good indicator of per core workload performance.

Nevermind the compiler optimization, that becomes too complex (of course it matters). But speaking in general terms DMIPS seems to be a good indicator.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby scjet » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:37 pm

If Hardkernel / Odroid is swinging an x86_64 architecture, then why didn't they look at the much better:
AMD Ryzen 5 2500U (4C/8T) Mobile CPU/Radeon Vega 8 GPU ?
This would easily blow away, (especially with the Radeon Vega 8 GPU), that Intel Gemini Celeron (4C/4T).
The price, and power ratings, should also be the same, or less than the Intel Gemini variation.

Other than that, an SBC x86_64 arch is always welcome, as long as,
-the Firmware/BIOS is upgradeable on these x86-based SBC's, so as to provide a future bug-free use.
Sadly, it also looks like Intel ME, and the UEFI/Microsoft Secure Boot blobs are a pain that we're just gonna have to live with. Also,
-please make sure that Microsoft's "Secure Boot" can be DISABLED on this SBC, if the User so chooses, for obvious Linux/*BSD reasons ...

Lol, anyway,
Welcome back to the proprietary world of x86_64-Micro$oft-based architectures, -where Micro$oft has always been trying to kill ALL Free/OpenSource OS's/App's forever.
;)
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby tmihai20 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:05 pm

@scjet: read the first post, it describes all the steps HardKernel went through. I doubt the price or the power consumption would be as good as H2. Great power comes with great responsibility.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby scjet » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:11 pm

tmihai20 wrote:@scjet: read the first post, it describes all the steps HardKernel went through. I doubt the price or the power consumption would be as good as H2. Great power comes with great responsibility.

I did,
and that also doesn't mean that Hardkernel won't build an SBC based on AMD's Zen* architecture later, just like other Hardware developers have started to do now.
Oh and btw, if you wanna play rhyme a quote, then "Foresight always beats the, ehm, "Great power" of hindsight".
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby tmihai20 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:39 pm

@scjet: I was just paraphrasing it. I doubt a Ryzen SBC will have the same power consumption as H2. The price for a Ryzen SBC, albeit it is reportedly 4 to 5 times faster, it would be in the about 300 USD. HardKernel got scolded for releasing a X86 board, I cannot even imagine what other people would say if they ever released one with Ryzen priced over 200 or 250 USD. I would definitely not be interested in a SBC that would cost over 200 USD.
One small observation: people got spoiled with ARM SBCs and they will immediately dismiss a X86 one with a slightly higher price (there was even someone cursing here). There is definitely a market for SBC with X86 SoC with proper connectivity.

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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby ASword » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:55 am

Ronaldleess wrote:
ujsrwidc wrote:You can also have a look at the RISC-V board here when you dont care about money: https://www.crowdsupply.com/sifive/hifive-unleashed
It runs quake 2 - what else did you need :D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8jqGOgCy5M


I looked at the RISC-V offering, and in many ways it was tempting. If (for the same price) - it had on-board video, I'd have bitten. But, unless you add video separately, you're limited to the serial console. I don't understand that - it seems that even a cheapo video on-board would have made the thing much more attractive.


Funny, I was just thinking that with so many of these SBCs I wish they had a version without video because I'll never use it and having it makes it less attractive.
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Re: Brand New ODROID Single Board Computer

Unread postby crashoverride » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:13 am

ASword wrote:with so many of these SBCs I wish they had a version without video

The MC1 and HC1/2 line of products do not include video connections.
https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-hc1-home-cloud-one/
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