The Next ODROID!

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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby mad_ady » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:45 pm

How about having jumpers in key positions to control power to sata/pcie and other power hungry resources? Should be easy to disable if needed.
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby rooted » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:51 pm

mad_ady wrote:How about having jumpers in key positions to control power to sata/pcie and other power hungry resources? Should be easy to disable if needed.
It worked to reconcile OTG functionality on the C2, but that was more a workaround that a proper fix I believe.
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby tkaiser » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:57 pm

mad_ady wrote:How about having jumpers in key positions to control power to sata/pcie and other power hungry resources? Should be easy to disable if needed.


By looking at the consumption graph (lower 'boot' than 'idle' consumption which is simply impossible or at least weird) I would assume that a simple 'rmmod' or blacklisting the module would already bring consumption down to more sane levels. Since why the hell should a board being busy at boot (with a distro using systemd so a lot of stuff happening in parallel and all CPU cores being utilized) consume less than afterwards idling around?

And if the ASM1061's consumption can not be controlled by loading/unloading the driver I would prefer a GPIO that can be toggled from user space to enable/disable power. But... let's wait and see.
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby rooted » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:06 pm

tkaiser wrote:By looking at the consumption graph (lower 'boot' than 'idle' consumption which is simply impossible or at least weird) I would assume that a simple 'rmmod' or blacklisting the module would already bring consumption down to more sane levels. Since why the hell should a board being busy at boot (with a distro using systemd so a lot of stuff happening in parallel and all CPU cores being utilized) consume less than afterwards idling around?


That is interesting, good catch.

tkaiser wrote:And if the ASM1061's consumption can not be controlled by loading/unloading the driver I would prefer a GPIO that can be toggled from user space to enable/disable power. But... let's wait and see.


Agreed on both accounts. We should know by the end of the week.
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby odroid » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:40 pm

N1 sub-forum has been created.
viewforum.php?f=148
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby tmihai20 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:59 pm

@odroid: I cannot post in any of the threads in that sub-forum.
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby odroid » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:06 pm

tmihai20 wrote:@odroid: I cannot post in any of the threads in that sub-forum.

Thank you for the report. It should be fine now.
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby emk2203 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:12 pm

tkaiser wrote:
emk2203 wrote:I am replacing USB sticks with cheap 32G SSDs in adapters, seems to be better not only for speed, but for reliability as well.


You're only fooling yourself unfortunately. 'Cheap SSDs' are no better than anything else that's cheap, if you can't use TRIM any more as in your USB situation your SSD will die way earlier, there exists the chance to get a really cheap/crappy USB3-to-SATA bridge inside the enclosure (eg. Norelsys 1068X giving you great headaches with Linux on USB3 ports) and the main problem with USB thumb drives just as with SD cards is not a technical one but that a lot of fake/counterfeit stuff is out there and users neither know nor test for this. This is the real problem with flash memory products and fraudsters in the meantime start to expand their business from low-end memory flash to SSDs.

Wrt the enclosure you mentioned, simply read the reviews: 'Working good. The speed of the SSD is 400 m/sg but It is very hot. You almost can burn your finger when you touch the device. i dont know if the problem is the pendrive or the SSD. I think that It Will break in few time' (overheating and throttling down is what will happen if you put a genuine and quality M.2 SSD inside, but if you buy a cheap 2230 M.2 those are slow and crappy anyway -- just some old NAND dies wired to an old controller with a sticker on top to hide the mess and faking SMART values anyway. Good luck with this!)


Extremely poor choice of words on my part, sorry. I am talking about affordable genuine quality SSDs from overstock because the demand for 32G is going down. On top of them, a heatsink (18 mm wide copper plate just thick enough to be flush with modules and case, thermal compound on both sides. Overheating inside shouldn't be a problem - if need be, I put another heatsink on the outside.

I completely agree with your assessment about cheap fakes vs quality. Unfortunately, you cannot find any decent USB stick solution out there. I had enough USB sticks die on me to look for a better solution, which should take no shortcuts. I also researched on the mfg site which bridge chip is inside - it's a ASM1153E, which should be good enough.

This is not supposed to be cheap, it is supposed to be as good as possible and still portable.
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby tmihai20 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:58 pm

odroid wrote:
tmihai20 wrote:@odroid: I cannot post in any of the threads in that sub-forum.

Thank you for the report. It should be fine now.

Thank you, it is working now.

To be on-topic, how much of what we are discussing here will make into the final form of N1?
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby hominoid » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:58 pm

ASword wrote:See tkaiser's answer. Cheap 32G SSDs may be literally the same hardware internally as USB sticks, behind the interface layer. The reverse is never true in practice -- you can't find a USB stick or SD card with a robust SSD controller in it.


The Corsair GTX has a SSD control, is fast, reliable (so far) and sweet. I bought one at half the MSRP listed.
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby ASword » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:13 am

hominoid wrote:
ASword wrote:See tkaiser's answer. Cheap 32G SSDs may be literally the same hardware internally as USB sticks, behind the interface layer. The reverse is never true in practice -- you can't find a USB stick or SD card with a robust SSD controller in it.


The Corsair GTX has a SSD control, is fast, reliable (so far) and sweet. I bought one at half the MSRP listed.
http://www.corsair.com/en-us/flash-voya ... sh-drive-b


Okay, almost never. :)

That’s quite the monster. I paid less for me 2.5” SATA 256GB SSD, so that Corsair isn’t exactly an affordable solution.
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby campbell » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:07 am

mad_ady wrote:How about having jumpers in key positions to control power to sata/pcie and other power hungry resources? Should be easy to disable if needed.

I like this. If you're gonna throw it on a drone you need the raw CPU power and things like GPIOs and serial and not much else.

But I also like the idea of toggling a GPIO to turn it on and off as necessary.

But even more than that, I like the idea that when you've umounted all the sata drives, the power draw should go down just as far as if it were physically disabled...
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby hominoid » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:17 am

ASword wrote:
hominoid wrote:
ASword wrote:See tkaiser's answer. Cheap 32G SSDs may be literally the same hardware internally as USB sticks, behind the interface layer. The reverse is never true in practice -- you can't find a USB stick or SD card with a robust SSD controller in it.


The Corsair GTX has a SSD control, is fast, reliable (so far) and sweet. I bought one at half the MSRP listed.
http://www.corsair.com/en-us/flash-voya ... sh-drive-b


Okay, almost never. :)

That’s quite the monster. I paid less for me 2.5” SATA 256GB SSD, so that Corsair isn’t exactly an affordable solution.

That's why I mentioned I didn't pay full price but, I thought I remember part of the discussion being about people not wanting to pay for quality. Also different use case for a SSD. I'm there with your remarks only; of the last 30 name brand SDCards I bought from a reputable seller, 10% were bad out of the box, 10% more died within a month or two and another 15% have died since (less than 1year). I should have followed my experience and bought the HK emmc's I contemplated at the time. The TCO would have been lower/better as well as my down time and temperament. :o
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby tkaiser » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:06 am

campbell wrote:But even more than that, I like the idea that when you've umounted all the sata drives, the power draw should go down just as far as if it were physically disabled...


I think this can and will be done either way. If it's just loading/unloading the driver to get ASM1061 behaving well, then it's maybe just a simple daemon in the background looking for SATA devices behind ASM1061 and if not simply unloading the driver at boot. If Hardkernel needs to add a GPIO to cut power I would believe they'll do.

I hope no one is expecting 'SATA hot swap' working with this board so something primitive like the above 'daemon' should do. There's also the educational challenge involved since Hardkernel needs to tell their customers that internal SATA connectors are not like external ones made for 5,000 matings but that these things might already fail after a few disks connected/disconnected. The same way users today destroy their eMMC capabilities (ripping out the eMMC out of the sockets on their boards and SD card adapter not thinking about how fragile/tiny this connector is), the same way they will make their N1 'SATA less' soon.

I won't jump into the USB thumbdrive vs. SSD discussion again but just with N1 context in mind: Those people who today suffer from 'as cheap SD cards as possible being unrealiable' will run into the same issue with N1 and other opportunities to 'buy cheap, buy twice'. Thinking crappy (m)SATA products would be superiour is wrong, same with USB thumbdrives.

These products and its consumers exist: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1XOTG-Micro-US ... 1411640010

A '2 TB USB thumbdrive' for less than 5 bucks which is of course fake most probably having just 1/1000 the capacity. That's the real problem no one is checking for when buying flash memory products.
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby elatllat » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:47 am

hominoid wrote:..30 name brand SDCards I bought from a reputable seller, 10% were bad out of the box, 10% more died within a month or two and another 15% have died since (less than 1year)...

What brand, what seller, what device?
I have only had 1/10 fail and that was after ~8 years
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby tkaiser » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:56 am

elatllat wrote:[What brand, what seller, what device?


100% irrelevant since the problem is called fake flash. And you can buy this crap everywhere since it gets inserted into the supply chain early. Web search for eg. 'counterfeit sd card amazon' should give the idea.

Edit: And for those people who think that fake flash wouldn't be an issue with SSDs: here's a nice demo where you see how to turn some crappy MMC flash storage into something that looks and feels like a SSD but performs badly and shows a reliability worse than a single SD card: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3frnBoqqI_Q (the tested product is this http://usb.brando.com/10-x-micro-sd-to- ... 46d15.html but the main controller chip is the one on crappy mSATA and soon also M.2 SSDs already)
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby elatllat » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:25 am

I can only write off your experience as you using a non-reputable brand/seller/device due to the refusal to provide details and the mention of Amazon.
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby tkaiser » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:46 am

elatllat wrote:you using a non-reputable brand/seller/device due to the refusal to provide details and the mention of Amazon.


LOL! Maybe you're confusing me with @hominoid (he was the one reporting having bought tons of counterfeit SD cards)?

I try to only buy Samsung EVO/EVO+ or in the meantime SanDisk Extreme Plus A1 and every flash memory product gets tested directly after purchase since this is the ONLY way to avoid counterfeit flash products. I usually use http://oss.digirati.com.br/f3/ but Windows users might prefer http://www.heise.de/download/h2testw.html -- if the test reports faked capacity or performance is too low I return the cards (happens still too often).

Of course fraudsters prefer 'reputable brands' since they're not stupid and of course no seller rips out SD cards out of the packaging to test for fakes before they sell it to you. And in the meantime the fraudsters get better and better, some of the fakes that were sold in 2017 show real capacity but are just magnitudes slower and start to fail early (we had several reports of Samsung EVO+ last year over in Armbian forum). Anyway: 'slightly' off-topic here :)
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby hominoid » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:23 am

elatllat wrote:What brand, what seller, what device?
I have only had 1/10 fail and that was after ~8 years

They were Volkswagen sdcards :D
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby elatllat » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:39 am

tkaiser wrote:... off-topic here :)

If there were a problem with sdcards from reputable sellers removing the option from the N1 would be considered. But AFAIK it's easy to get a quality sdcard so there is no problem.
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby tkaiser » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:56 am

elatllat wrote:
tkaiser wrote:... off-topic here :)

If there were a problem with sdcards from reputable sellers removing the option from the N1 would be considered. But AFAIK it's easy to get a quality sdcard so there is no problem.


Sure, a well known problem that exists everywhere does not exist in certain micro communities :D

https://tech.scargill.net/a-question-of ... ment-33659

Just some math: If you buy a real (genuine, eg. Kingston) SD card with 16 GB capacity even those cards using really mediocre technology inside are good for writing at least 1 TB to them (most probably a lot more, depends on type and quality of NAND flash, controller and write amplification).

If you happen to buy a faked 16 GB Kingston (fraudsters love brands loved by consumers!) with only 4 GB real capacity then this card is good for writing exactly 4 GB to it. After 4 GB it's game over. A fake flash memory products simply dies at least 1,000 times faster than a crappy genuine one. You write a large OS image to it three times, do something else with it and after a few weeks it's over. Not since SD cards are unreliable per definition but since the market is flooded with counterfeit products.
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby elatllat » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:52 am

tkaiser wrote:...a well known problem...

Is people buying sdcards from non-reputable sources (aliexpress, ebay, 3rd party amazon, 3rd party newegg, etc).
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby mastertheknife » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:16 pm

I have a few questions\suggestions.

1) Looking at the RK3399 datasheet, it supports 3 different GPIO voltages: 1.8V, 3.0V and 3.3V.
The problem with 3.0V, is that the input high threshold is up to 3.15V, which means that 3.3V signals will require a level shifter, which makes it impossible to use RPI\C1\C2 addons on the N1.
2) The RK3399 has 5 UARTs, but the N1 is using UART #0 for serial console and UART #2 on the 40pin header. Is it possible to add another UART to the 40pin header?
3) Same for PWM. There are 4 PWMs but 1 is used for fan control, and another one is located in the 40pin header. Could be nice to have a 2nd PWM in the 40pin header.
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Re: The Next ODROID!

Unread postby odroid » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:19 pm

N1 sub-forum has been created.
viewforum.php?f=148


This topic is locked because too much crowded.
Please make new threads on the N1 sub-forum.
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