odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

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odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by tonnys »

Dear Hardkernel,

As the title said, any plan to upgrade odroid n2+ with minimal RAM 8GB and m.2 slot for storage? We can omit the emmc slot too. As of now, we can buy m.2 ssd or nvme cheaper than emmc.

I'm using n2 now for my daily driver (desktop replacement). Quite comfortable beside one thing: I've to constantly worried and checking whether the memory was full or not.

Just now, it crash with no more than 15 firefox tabs, a gnome-terminal, 1 thunar open. With 1.8GB ZRAM swap to boot.

Thanks

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by igorpec »

tonnys wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 7:13 pm
Just now, it crash with no more than 15 firefox tabs, a gnome-terminal, 1 thunar open. With 1.8GB ZRAM swap to boot.
Which OS you are using?

I quickly checked if this is reproducible on Armbian, but as you can see, not possible to ran out of memory just like that: most of Office programs are loaded, mpv is running, two terminals and 30 - 40 tabs in Firefox. Doesn't seem to be a problem.
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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by tonnys »

Hi @igorpec,

I'm using archlinux XFCE from @jgmdev, kernel 5.10.2-6-ARCH with ZRAM enabled. When boot to XFCE, it consumes about ~650MB. Opening firefox with whatsapp web plus joox, it consumes about ~1.5GB. When I'm using whatsap web moderately a few days, it can consume about ~2.2GB just for both whatsapp web and joox.

I'm using firefox, opening whatsapp web, joox, and sometimes google drive, gmail, and youtube. As I know, it's not 'light' sites. If we just open sites with text and image, then yes, we can open > 20 tabs. If we constantly restart the N2, then yes, we can open like 30-40 tabs no problem. But when we use it couple of days, it will balooning in size.

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by igorpec »

tonnys wrote:
Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:20 pm
But when we use it couple of days, it will balooning in size.
Sounds like a memory leak in Archlinux package base or this image specifically. If nothing is changed / fixed sw wise, 8GB would only buy you few day :)
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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by tonnys »

It's not memory leak IMO, but firefox caching. After we close the tabs there's still something that cached in memory.

If we want to free all the memories, we must close all firefox tabs. Then, all the memories go back. When no opened firefox, it just the usual ~650MB used RAM.

BTW, my archlinux workstation latitude e6440 use 16GB, 24/7 too, with suspend when I'm not using it. And it hardly use 8GB mem although have leaked mem on Plasma ~3GB after > 20 days on continuous use.

So, if we have odroid n2 with 8GB plus nvme, plus zram, I think it will hardly filling those memories. Plus we too will have fast swap space (m.2 storage) if we forced to use huge RAM. :)

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by tonnys »

@igorpec,
Could you check, how much mem when you open armbian forum and posting in it? I'm opening 2 phoronix forum tab, posting on 1 tab, and it use almost ~1GB for that (total ~3GB). When closing those tabs with some other random tabs memory use is ~1.5GB

Thanks

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by mad_ady »

All browser are memory hogs, unfortunately. But it's prpbably because contemporary sites are complex.
Try a tab suspender. It should reclaim some memory back.
FWIW, my "work laptop" has 4G of RAM (and 10G of swap on ssd) and maxes out all the ram with <20 firefox tabs... You can never have too much ram if you don't close your tabs...

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by tonnys »

@mad_ady,

Can't be helped. I'm web developer. When developing, for testing 1 project alone, sometimes I have to open >= 4 tabs. Plus sometimes I have to chat via whatsapp web, get files from drives, check web gmail, and googling for help. I opened > 12 in no time.

I have intel nuc6cayh with 8gb that easily upgraded to 16GB, that have sata3 storage. But it consumes ~6W when idle (which is most of the time) and easily go to 15W when processing (idle power 2x compared to n2, load 3x). RPi4 have 8GB with ~4W, close to the nuc power. And didnt have built in m.2 too.

So, if there's m.2, 8GB odroid n2, will be very exited. :)

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by mad_ady »

Why not use all resources together? I usually use Firefox on my work desktop via xpra and run a new instance locally too. That way I can soak up to 12G of RAM (4 local + 8 remote).

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by tonnys »

If I want to use all resources, I will just use my worksration alone as it have i7 4800mq, 16GB and SSD. But what I want is one good enough computer with fast storage and enough RAM that sip power so I can work just from it and can be powered it 24/7.

With this setup, when I go outside with the laptop, I can still access my files via vpn to the SBC.

I'll just make do with n2 for now. If it's not enough for my use case, maybe will go nuc route.

But still, wishing for proposed n2++

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by powerful owl »

Perhaps H2+?

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by igorpec »

Alternative is also some RK3399 based board which can have nvme drive (up to 4 pci lines which is responsive). But it's also limited to 4GB of memory, like Amlogic from N2 and most of other variants. Hardkernel started with that board (Odroid N1), but they pulled it out. Forget what was the reason ...

NicoD https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpv7NF ... xoklh3Snhg is using Nanopi M4 for all his daily activities including video editing. Rpi has more memory, but memory is not very fast ... Other variants, like Honeycomb are in different price range.
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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by ASword »

The N2, like most ARM SoCs, have a hard limit on its physical memory addressing capability — 4GB. You will not see more RAM than without a new SoC.

Virtual memory with an SSD backing should work just fine though...?

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by tonnys »

powerful owl wrote:Perhaps H2+?
The power consumption will be the same or greater than the nuc. Last night I measure again, the nuc6cayh with celeron J3455 8GB RAM 500GB HDD manjaro use about ~8 watt idle. ~6 watt is when I use 4GB RAM. Didn't know that adding 4 more gigs of RAM add about ~1.8 watt. Damn.

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by tonnys »

@igorpec

Won't go RK3399 as the availability in my country is scarce and pricey. Plus, it too using just 4GB RAM. If the choice is just 4GB SBC, I'll go @mad_ady (ssd swap) route than buying RK3399 board as I have n2, whether RK SBC, I must buy again.

Yes, RPi4 RAM is slower than this n2. The speed difference is noticeable. But, RPi4 have 8GB variant. The other minuses? Mini-HDMI and 28nm node.

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by tonnys »

@A$word

Ah, yes. After searching, it looks like 4GB is the max mem limit for this S922. What a pity. (https://dn.odroid.com/S922X/ODROID-N2/D ... t_V0.2.pdf)

Hoping for n3 then. Something like n2+ with >= A76 big.LITTLE, m.2 onboard slot, >= 8GB

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by igorpec »

tonnys wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:11 am
@igorpec
The other minuses? Mini-HDMI and 28nm node.
- the biggest minus is that it doesn't have proper storage option. Not even an eMMC. Its a toy and RK3399 with 4 x PCI lines is a master king in this regard :). Proper(!) ZRAM configuration + SWAP and you are out of troubles.
- second biggest issue is powering. 12V power barrel on N2 is still better than USB-C Rpi.
-
... then perhaps mini hdmi.
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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by tonnys »

@igorpec,

Yep. 5V DC is one of the main concern too. As for storage, I plan to cache as much as possible on ram as it have 8GB. Another route is by using SSD. Last time I check, sata 2 RW speed is > 200MBps with RPi4. Quite ok.

And same with n2, it can boot from USB3 SSD.

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by igorpec »

tonnys wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:40 pm
@igorpec,

Yep. 5V DC is one of the main concern too. As for storage, I plan to cache as much as possible on ram as it have 8GB.
4 PCI line NVME SSD is not much slower than memory on RPi, so the need for caching is not that critical. Proper storage and powering is more important in most cases. They represent stability which I am sure you don't want to mess around with. They added extra 4G since it was possible due to SoC design and people buy numbers - more is better even you don't need it. BTW. My storage system has 128GB of memory to cache slow mechanical disks. Also with half that it speeds up, but having 4GB or 8GB is just too little to have any impact.
tonnys wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:40 pm
Another route is by using SSD. Last time I check, sata 2 RW speed is > 200MBps with RPi4. Quite ok.
PCI connected NVME SSD on RK3399 easly goes 1200MBps - 1500MBps while memory on Rpi is significantly slower than RK3399, N2+, C4 ... Do some calculations https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/sbc-ben ... Results.md

It's always a trade.
tonnys wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:40 pm
And same with n2, it can boot from USB3 SSD.
USB connected system disk is yet another source of troubles. USB protocol was not designed for continuous hi-speed data transfer, connectors are not adequate, lots of USB2SATA bridges are garbage. You also want to avoid this if possible.
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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by tonnys »

@igorpec,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I learned much from that

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by jgmdev »

What I did was to partition the emmc as swap (8 gigs swap partition, call me crazy) and mount it on fstab, use sd card as boot device because I got display/booting issues when booting from petitboot with mainline kernel and run the OS from a SSD using this enclosure https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M08LCXW/ with firmware updated from hardkernel to support trim.

Maybe Im crazy for running such setup but it has been 1 year this way and it is working without issues, and now better with gpu acceleration by panfrost and running wayfire which offers great rendering performance. I have never run out of ram and I'm also a web developer like you. Hehe I have even compiled kernels using the 6 cores with firefox still open and nvim, geany or codelite :), not to pleasant but it hasn't died from ram on me. I dont use zram because I did notice a performance hit when compiling kernels.

The only times firefox has bring down my system is when forcing layers hardware acceleration which has issues with panfrost. Also if you are using my archlinux images with kernel 5.10 you may wish to upgrade to linux-odroid-511, linux-odroid-511-headers for latest 5.11 release candidate kernel with tobetter patches, has been stable for me.

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by tonnys »

@jgmdev,

I'm quite often use whatsapp web, gmail, drive, youtube, joox.. Those web are quite heavy-weight. For now, I'm using my workstation with 16GB RAM. It use 4GB now (uptime 6 days) with whatsapp, a google drive (sometimes I've to open > 1), a couple of adminer, joox, fb. 1 dolphin, 1 konsole, 1 kwrite. I can close all tabs and open again, but it's inconvenient (here). If on n2, I usually did that. But when I open firefox again, it have to read the cache or load all the data again from inet.

Well, everyone have their own use case. Sadly, n2 not enough for my use case. Plus, I'm using microsd (emmc too pricey for me) and looks like firefox is a heavy-weight cacher (after maybe 10 days, it cache almost 1GB. dunno how long the microsd last with that kind of work).

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by jgmdev »

You can disable firefox caching as explained here https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/905902 and an 8gb or 16gb emmc is cheaper to use as swap. Also you should disable journaling and access time with noatime as explained here https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/q ... d-card#186 to expand the sd card lifetime, improves rw performance too
(I do this even on usb drives)

Finally you could also use a usb3 pendrive (should be cheap) to store your /home directory so sd card can breath better.
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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by mad_ady »

God bless you, @jgmdev ! I never found those options and I'm plagued by chronic firefox memory usage... I'd rather disable cache and consume network when needed... I'll have to do it on all my systems...

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by tonnys »

Thanks for the info @jmgdev. I'll try it. As for swap with emmc, i think i'll use ssd. 16GB emmc is pricier than 128GB SSD here. Add ~$7 and you get quite good m.2 nvme. Same if I want to ship it from hardkernel, as the shipping cost is quite steep and my country VAT is like 30% + 'other' tax.

I wish for future hardkernel product, there's m.2 slot as that is now quite cheap and easy to source.

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by istanbulls »

jgmdev wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:00 pm
What I did was to partition the emmc as swap (8 gigs swap partition, call me crazy) and mount it on fstab, use sd card as boot device because I got display/booting issues when booting from petitboot with mainline kernel and run the OS from a SSD using this enclosure https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M08LCXW/ with firmware updated from hardkernel to support trim.

Maybe Im crazy for running such setup but it has been 1 year this way and it is working without issues, and now better with gpu acceleration by panfrost and running wayfire which offers great rendering performance. I have never run out of ram and I'm also a web developer like you. Hehe I have even compiled kernels using the 6 cores with firefox still open and nvim, geany or codelite :), not to pleasant but it hasn't died from ram on me. I dont use zram because I did notice a performance hit when compiling kernels.

The only times firefox has bring down my system is when forcing layers hardware acceleration which has issues with panfrost. Also if you are using my archlinux images with kernel 5.10 you may wish to upgrade to linux-odroid-511, linux-odroid-511-headers for latest 5.11 release candidate kernel with tobetter patches, has been stable for me.
@jgmdev
Your Panfrost-Wayfire works flawlessly on your SSD.
It opens on the first try without any problems on every new startup.
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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by jgmdev »

istanbulls wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:34 pm
@jgmdev
Your Panfrost-Wayfire works flawlessly on your SSD.
It opens on the first try without any problems on every new startup.
This is off-topic for this thread, but it seems your display works correctly under petitboot. I'm planning on enabling an option to force a 1920x1080 edid by default for those that have display issues like me when booting with petitboot which will work with non yet released spiboot image from tobetter. The option can be disabled or edid resolution customized by editing the boot.ini so I hope it fixes more than breaks :D

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by emrede »

tonnys wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 1:59 pm
Thanks for the info @jmgdev. I'll try it. As for swap with emmc, i think i'll use ssd. 16GB emmc is pricier than 128GB SSD here. Add ~$7 and you get quite good m.2 nvme. Same if I want to ship it from hardkernel, as the shipping cost is quite steep and my country VAT is like 30% + 'other' tax.

I wish for future hardkernel product, there's m.2 slot as that is now quite cheap and easy to source.

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So if I understand correctly: there is no way to use m.2 NVME storage on the N2+ at the moment? No expansion boards or something similar?
I'm running out of space, and looking for a way to expand the storage, but the 128GB eMMC has been sold out for a while now. What's the best and fastest alternative? Connecting an UAS SSD via the USB port was buggy I read somewhere, or does this problem only exist on the N2?
Thanks!

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by ASword »

I've been running a couple of N2s (well one N2 and one N2+) for months with an SSD attached via HK's SATAIII/USB-C adapter, with no issues. I'd be interested in seeing more concrete reports of problems.

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Re: odroid n2++ >= 8GB and m.2 storage?

Post by emrede »

ASword wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 6:34 am
I've been running a couple of N2s (well one N2 and one N2+) for months with an SSD attached via HK's SATAIII/USB-C adapter, with no issues. I'd be interested in seeing more concrete reports of problems.
There is a remark on the N2 wiki of HK: "USB 3.0 Ports #1 is not stable when we connect an external HDD storage enclosure with a cable", looks like it's only port no.1 then?
And I noticed some posts on the forum about this.
But thanks for making me do another search, it seems to be related to port no.1 only, check this post:
viewtopic.php?p=323610#p323610

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