Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 40545
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English, Korean
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 3004 times
Been thanked: 1668 times
Contact:

Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by odroid »

Today we are introducing a new Single Board Computer(SBC) ODROID-N2L that is very small in size but powerful in performance.

The ODROID-N2L is the low-cost variant of our most popular and powerful ARM SBC ODROID-N2+.
This project was actually initiated at the request of several B2B customers. They were satisfied with the performance and convenience of the highly versatile N2+.
However, they wanted to embed a relatively compact, cost-effective, simple, and still high-performance SBC into their system.

Therefore, we made it!
  1. Smaller and neater form factor: 69 x 56mm
  2. Small size allows for mounting inside a variety of small devices
  3. Suitable for various standalone embedded system which don’t require Ethernet connectivity
  4. Suitable for building robots, drones, arcade consoles, human-machine-interface devices, and many other applications
  5. Faster and lower power consumption LPDDR4 RAM
  6. Lightweight
  7. Low cost
Image

Image

Image

While the letter 'L' does not refer to any specific word, it has various meanings such as Little, Leaf, Lynx, Lovely, Lumen, LPDDR and Light.


We removed some features which were available on the N2+ to reduce the material cost and to minimize the PCB form factor.
Ethernet, RTC, SPI-Flash, OTG port, Analog audio output, IR receiver, three USB 3.0 ports and the large heatsink frame were removed.

Since we developed the ODROID-N2L model to be built into the device, we did not prepare a dedicated case.
We will release the files for 3D printers used for internal review and certification later.




Block diagram

Image


If you need wireless connectivity, consider using a USB adapter like our WiFi Module 5BK.

Image




Performance

We replaced the DDR4 RAM chips with a single LPDDR4 chip to minimize the PCB form factor and reduce power consumption.
As a bonus, around 20% higher DRAM interface clock frequency is an obvious and important improvement. We could find 10% to 20% of increased system performance compared to the original N2+ in various benchmark test results.
The GPU benchmark glmark2-es2 also showed about 10% of increased performance which is very similar to the improvement of the memory bandwidth (MBW) test.

Image




Power consumption

The N2L power consumption is obviously lower than ODROID-N2+ thanks to the less power demanding LPDDR4 memory and the removal of Ethernet and some other components.

Image


We used our SmartPower3 (see https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/smartpower-iii/) to test and measure the ODROID-N2L power consumption while performing specific activities.

Image

Average power consumption
  1. Ubuntu Desktop Booting : 2.429 Watt
  2. IDLE : 1.836 Watt
  3. CPU Stress (stress-ng) : 5.134 Watt
  4. YouTube play : 3.991 Watt
  5. Power Off : 0.204 Watt



Thermal characteristics

The stock cooling fan must always rotate to avoid thermal throttling when running a very heavy computing load with an overclocked 2.4Ghz CPU clock frequency.

Image


If your system design doesn’t allow moving parts such as a cooling fan, you will need to replace it with a passive heatsink. In this scenario, you may need to limit the maximum CPU frequency to lower than 2Ghz if the working ambient temperature is high and computing load is very heavy.
Since the heat dissipation characteristics are somewhat diminished, the maximum clock frequency of the CPU may be slightly lowered and will need to be taken into consideration according to the purpose.

Image

Image




OS images and CAUTION

Because the DRAM chip was changed from DDR4 to LPDDR4, the existing OS image for N2/N2+ will NOT boot on N2L. It is necessary to modify the boot loader files at a minimum.

Currently, the following OS images for N2L have been prepared.
- Android 9.0 64bit and 32bit images
- Ubuntu 22.04 Mate / Minimal with Kernel 4.9
- Ubuntu 22.04 Desktop with Kernel 5.15 and upstream
- EmuELEC (TBD)

As we plan to distribute development samples to forum community developers from next week, we expect that many 3rd party OS images will appear within a few months.




Board details

Image
  1. S922X Hexa-core CPU
  2. 2GB or 4GB LPDDR4x RAM
  3. DC Power Jack (7.5V ~ 16.5V wide input range)
  4. HDMI 2.0
  5. 1 x USB 3.0, 1 x USB 2.0
  6. MIPI-DSI (Not supported yet)
  7. Micro SD slot
  8. UART for System console
  9. Cooling Fan connector
  10. 40 pin GPIO header
  11. eMMC Module socket



Specifications

Image

Note that the MIPI-DSI port is not enabled at this moment and may take several months to develop and distribute a device driver. If your major application needs a MIPI display device, please wait to purchase the N2L until after a working driver is available.




Demo videos

<1> Ubuntu Gnome Desktop 22.04 + Kernel 6.0 + Panfrost + Vulkan API (4GB model)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUpB7AVu_XA


<2> Kiosk Frontend package + Chromium WebGL demo (2GB model)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nonyx0z9m5Q





Documentation and OS images
N2L WiKi pages for more detail technical information and prebuilt OS images. https://wiki.odroid.com/odroid-n2l
CE/FCC/KC certification documents are also available on the WiKi page hardware section. https://wiki.odroid.com/odroid-n2l/hardware




Price and availability
You can order it right now, and we will start shipping within a few days.
2GB: $59 ==> https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid- ... gbyte-ram/
4GB: $69 ==> https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid- ... gbyte-ram/




Recommended and compatible Accessories
12V/2A PSU (EU/US/UK/KR/Australia plugs) https://www.hardkernel.com/product-cate ... y-battery/
eMMC and microSD for N2L https://www.hardkernel.com/product-category/memories/
WiFi Bluetooth combo module : https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/wifi-module-5bk/
7inch HDMI TFT LCD with capacitive touch screen : https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid- ... ability-2/
5inch HDMI TFT LCD with capacitive touch screen : https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid- ... apability/
RTC Shield: https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/rtc-shield/
UART raw console access kit: https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/usb-uar ... -kit-copy/
Passive cooler: https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/40-x-40 ... heat-sink/
Smart Power 3: https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/smartpower-iii/
These users thanked the author odroid for the post (total 12):
shanti (Tue Nov 08, 2022 4:07 pm) • joerg (Tue Nov 08, 2022 4:29 pm) • AreaScout (Tue Nov 08, 2022 5:49 pm) • mctom (Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:17 pm) • istanbulls (Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:58 pm) • rooted (Tue Nov 08, 2022 7:28 pm) • hominoid (Tue Nov 08, 2022 11:32 pm) • domih (Wed Nov 09, 2022 12:44 am) • superpowter77 (Wed Nov 09, 2022 3:09 am) • meveric (Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:16 pm) and 2 more users

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 40545
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English, Korean
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 3004 times
Been thanked: 1668 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by odroid »

Reserved

DVus
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:19 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: n2 c2 m1
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by DVus »

Looks great. Any chance the N2+ will get upgraded to the faster LPDDR4 :) and POE option :D......
Last edited by DVus on Tue Nov 08, 2022 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 40545
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English, Korean
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 3004 times
Been thanked: 1668 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by odroid »

DVus wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 4:33 pm
Any chance the N2+ will get upgraded to the faster LPDDR4 :)
We have no plan because most B2B customers who have been using the N2 platform for 2-3 years are very reluctant to change the software(their own OS images) of their production systems.
Also, getting all CE/FCC/KC certifications for a new product can take 4-5 months and is quite expensive.

To be honest, over 70% of our sales come from B2B customers, so I hope you understand that we have no choice but to listen to them. :)
These users thanked the author odroid for the post (total 2):
istanbulls (Tue Nov 08, 2022 7:00 pm) • notime2d8 (Thu Nov 10, 2022 4:48 am)

DVus
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:19 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: n2 c2 m1
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by DVus »

odroid wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 4:41 pm
DVus wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 4:33 pm
Any chance the N2+ will get upgraded to the faster LPDDR4 :)
We have no plan because most B2B customers who have been using the N2 platform for 2-3 years are very reluctant to change the software(their own OS images) of their production systems.
Also, getting all CE/FCC/KC certifications for a new product can take 4-5 months and is quite expensive.
Understand, always nice to see new products, so thank you, just wish it had an Ethernet header. No doubt you will bring out another new board to tempt me :) RK3588 ?

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 40545
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English, Korean
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 3004 times
Been thanked: 1668 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by odroid »

DVus wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 4:50 pm
No doubt you will bring out another new board to tempt me :) RK3588 ?
No firm plan yet since we still believe our new H3 & H3+ boards are much more competitive than that one.
Anyway, it is too much off-topic. Open your own topic on the forum somewhere.

User avatar
mctom
Posts: 2583
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:44 am
languages_spoken: english, polish
ODROIDs: OGA, XU4, C2, M1, H3+, SP3, Vu8M
Location: Gdansk, Poland
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 444 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by mctom »

I fell in love! What am I supposed to tell my girlfriend now? :lol:

This small form factor offers so many new possibilities!

I see DSI is not fully working which is fine with me, but what are the plans, which models will be supported?
Punk ain't no religious cult, punk means thinking for yourself!

Maintainer of PiStackMon

User avatar
mad_ady
Posts: 11200
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:00 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: XU4 (HC1, HC2), C1+, C2, C4 (HC4), N1, N2, H2, Go, Go Advance, M1
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Has thanked: 647 times
Been thanked: 1056 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by mad_ady »

It is lovely, indeed! Congratulations on reusing the know-how you built on the N2/N2+ and Go-Ultra. This means better software support, and faster designs from your team!

The N2L is reminiscent of XU4/XU4Q in terms of form factor. I'm sad to see ethernet gone (the connector might have fit on top of the HDMI port, but I guess the PHY chip would have been tough to squeeze in). Anyway, for a dedicated device it ticks most of the checkboxes!

I wonder if connecting a SPI memory to it would make it able to boot to petitboot?

Also glad to see EMMC wasn't axed!

Congratulations!

User avatar
mctom
Posts: 2583
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:44 am
languages_spoken: english, polish
ODROIDs: OGA, XU4, C2, M1, H3+, SP3, Vu8M
Location: Gdansk, Poland
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 444 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by mctom »

mad_ady wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:48 pm
I'm sad to see ethernet gone
I feel this might be the hottest topic of the discussion, and also my first reflex. But I see it as a feature really - mag-jacks are bulky and not needed in many applications. Think about anything mobile like carputers, or even remote locations in the apartment. And Wi-Fi is already fast enough for the most typical scenarios.

I'm all for flexibility and USB somewhat solves that.
There are still XU4s should anyone need something similar with Ethernet capability.

What IS missing, however, are the auxiliary DC input pads. But let's face it, there was no chance to squeeze them in this design. :)
Punk ain't no religious cult, punk means thinking for yourself!

Maintainer of PiStackMon

User avatar
istanbulls
Posts: 837
Joined: Tue May 14, 2019 10:18 pm
languages_spoken: Turkish
ODROIDs: ODROID; N2, C4, XU4, N2+, CH4
Location: Istanbul-Turkey
Has thanked: 499 times
Been thanked: 156 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by istanbulls »

wow wow wow... Odroid-N2LamborgMini.
small compact cute and of course the N2 legend. welcome <3

User avatar
rooted
Posts: 9971
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:12 am
languages_spoken: english
Location: Gulf of Mexico, US
Has thanked: 777 times
Been thanked: 581 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by rooted »

Congratulations on the release, it's an interesting design.

I'm with Adrian about the Ethernet but USB is there so it's not any sort of show stopper.

User avatar
tobetter
Posts: 11383
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:55 am
languages_spoken: Korean, English
ODROIDs: Many
Location: Paju, South Korea
Has thanked: 779 times
Been thanked: 1934 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by tobetter »

mad_ady wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:48 pm
I wonder if connecting a SPI memory to it would make it able to boot to petitboot?
Thank you for being a fan of Petitboot, unfortunately there is no pad for SPI flash memory on the board. :(

User avatar
istanbulls
Posts: 837
Joined: Tue May 14, 2019 10:18 pm
languages_spoken: Turkish
ODROIDs: ODROID; N2, C4, XU4, N2+, CH4
Location: Istanbul-Turkey
Has thanked: 499 times
Been thanked: 156 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by istanbulls »

tobetter wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 7:51 pm
mad_ady wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:48 pm
I wonder if connecting a SPI memory to it would make it able to boot to petitboot?
Thank you for being a fan of Petitboot, unfortunately there is no pad for SPI flash memory on the board. :(
I'm really sorry about this news... odroid=petitboot

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 40545
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English, Korean
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 3004 times
Been thanked: 1668 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by odroid »

istanbulls wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:14 pm
tobetter wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 7:51 pm
mad_ady wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:48 pm
I wonder if connecting a SPI memory to it would make it able to boot to petitboot?
Thank you for being a fan of Petitboot, unfortunately there is no pad for SPI flash memory on the board. :(
I'm really sorry about this news... odroid=petitboot
Personally, I definitely miss Petitboot too. :oops:
As far as I heard from B2B customers, Petitboot is very useful when performing various OS tests and evaluations for a new platform for 3 to 4 months, but after that, when applied to mass production, it is said that there is rarely a case of dynamically switching the OS.
Customers who use hundreds to thousands of SBCs per month are very price sensitive, so it was necessary to minimize the number of components.

User avatar
mctom
Posts: 2583
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:44 am
languages_spoken: english, polish
ODROIDs: OGA, XU4, C2, M1, H3+, SP3, Vu8M
Location: Gdansk, Poland
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 444 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by mctom »

I spy with my little eye on unpopulated headers.

J2 seems to be the analog audio output - is this going to be supported?
It's easier to use existing audio header rather than extracting audio from HDMI. :)
Punk ain't no religious cult, punk means thinking for yourself!

Maintainer of PiStackMon

User avatar
tobetter
Posts: 11383
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:55 am
languages_spoken: Korean, English
ODROIDs: Many
Location: Paju, South Korea
Has thanked: 779 times
Been thanked: 1934 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by tobetter »

mctom wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:30 pm
I spy with my little eye on unpopulated headers.

J2 seems to be the analog audio output - is this going to be supported?
It's easier to use existing audio header rather than extracting audio from HDMI. :)
BINGO!!

hominoid
Posts: 760
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:55 am
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C2, C4, XU4, MC1, N1, N2, N2L, N2+, HC4, M1, H2, H3+
Location: Lake Superior Basin, USA
Has thanked: 104 times
Been thanked: 345 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by hominoid »

What a cool little development board. This should spawn some neat projects and products. Definitely ups the performance envelope for small footprint SBC and provides a nice basic building block to start from for many uses. Another great product from the HK team, congratulations!

shanti
Posts: 352
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:12 am
languages_spoken: english, spanish
ODROIDs: Odroid N2
Has thanked: 114 times
Been thanked: 142 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by shanti »

odroid wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 3:09 pm
Currently, the following OS images for N2L have been prepared.
- Android 9.0 64bit and 32bit images
- Ubuntu 22.04 Mate / Minimal with Kernel 4.9
- Ubuntu 22.04 Desktop with Kernel 5.15 and upstream
- EmuELEC (TBD)
First of all congratulations and thanks for letting me test this device, I have to say I am impressed by the power that this thing delivers for emulation.
With the help of @tobetter EmuELEC is already working and it rivals the N2plus on my initial tests.

I do miss the Ethernet port,but in the end its not a deal breaker for me!
These users thanked the author shanti for the post (total 2):
tobetter (Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:30 am) • odroid (Wed Nov 09, 2022 9:26 am)

L67GS
Posts: 953
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:02 pm
languages_spoken: English, Jibberish, Pig Latin
ODROIDs: XU4, M1 8GB, C1+, (3) C0's, H3+, N2L 4GB, and a whole big pile of accessories, VU7A Plus,, MIPI-CSI Camera Kit, etc....
Location: Great Lakes Region, U.S.A
Has thanked: 295 times
Been thanked: 121 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by L67GS »

Wow! It's a maker board finally! 12v complicates things but it's fantastic.
The timing couldn't be better as I haven't gotten a H3+ yet, I can just do one order now.

nzone
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:48 am
languages_spoken: english
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by nzone »

Less is definitely more!

One day I hope to see a completely flat board with just emmc connector for data, a similar connector for upgradable wifi/bluetooth, mini hdmi (? is there a better solution), sound output, MIPI-DSI for touch screen, and the smallest way to connect a power pack/source. Everything else can be discarded including usb. Imagine how much simpler/smaller the kernel could be.

Looking forward to experiment with the MIPI-DSI in the coming months.

Thanks Hardkernel for all your great work.

L67GS
Posts: 953
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:02 pm
languages_spoken: English, Jibberish, Pig Latin
ODROIDs: XU4, M1 8GB, C1+, (3) C0's, H3+, N2L 4GB, and a whole big pile of accessories, VU7A Plus,, MIPI-CSI Camera Kit, etc....
Location: Great Lakes Region, U.S.A
Has thanked: 295 times
Been thanked: 121 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by L67GS »

nzone wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:18 am
Less is definitely more!

One day I hope to see a completely flat board with just emmc connector for data, a similar connector for upgradable wifi/bluetooth, mini hdmi (? is there a better solution), sound output, MIPI-DSI for touch screen, and the smallest way to connect a power pack/source. Everything else can be discarded including usb. Imagine how much simpler/smaller the kernel could be.

Looking forward to experiment with the MIPI-DSI in the coming months.

Thanks Hardkernel for all your great work.
The C0 (discontinued) was pretty much that, but without MIPI. Just a loveable little SBC.
https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-c0/

nzone
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:48 am
languages_spoken: english
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by nzone »

L67GS wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:34 am
The C0 (discontinued) was pretty much that, but without MIPI. Just a loveable little SBC.
https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-c0/
Yes, it seems to me that with the speed of wifi and also things like satellite internet anywhere network access (starlink etc), heading away from multiple ways of connecting all types of things is a thing of the past and the less complexity the better. I think Hardkernel is on the correct path with the release of this board.

tkaiser
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:30 am
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C1+, C2, XU4, HC1
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 25 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by tkaiser »

We could find 10% to 20% of increased system performance compared to the original N2+ in various benchmark test results.
Maybe time to overthink your benchmarking 'methodology'?

Dhrystone and Whetstone asides both being absolutely meaningless today [1] are highly susceptible to compiler version, optimizations and flags and as such when generating scores with GCC 9.3 (your N2+ numbers from 2.5 years ago with Ubuntu Focal) to compare them with numbers generated with GCC 12.2 (your N2L numbers made now with Ubuntu Jammy) unfortunately you're misleading users.

Since even if these Dhrystone/Whetstone scores are absolutely meaningless for today's computing you can only use their scores to do a 'hardware ranking of some sort' if you compile them in exactly identical environment [2]. See here for Dhrystone how this matters: https://www.brendangregg.com/blog/2014- ... marks.html (GCC 4.1.2 vs. 4.6.3 resulted in a 43% Dhrystone score 'improvement' on exactly same hardware. What you got now with GCC 9.3 vs. 12.2 is just N2L appearing as 17% 'faster' compared to N2+ which ofc is BS).

In other words: if you choose a non flawed methodology (as in [2]) and compare Dhrystone/Whetstone scores made both on Ubuntu Jammy (building with same GCC 12.2 and same libs) you'll get identical results for N2+ and N2L since both benchmarks are decades old and the whole working set fits inside internal CPU caches so memory access where a higher bandwidth could matter doesn't happen anyway.

N2+ and N2L share same SoC and same CPU clockspeeds. The only difference asides the cooling challenges to avoid throttling is a different DRAM type and maybe even more importantly a different DRAM initialization BLOB from Amlogic. Those BLOBs are very important since we've seen several times updating those came with higher memory bandwidth at the cost of also higher latency which in the end had even a negative outcome for the performance of many real-world use cases.

As the identical 7-zip MIPS reveal memory latency seems to be the same or at least hasn't significantly improved (would be great to get a sbc-bench result listing since the included ramlat/tinymembench measurements there would provide these insights) and as such it would be more honest to tell your target audience: 'Performance is the same between the two boards, the slightly higher memory bandwidth maybe generates some small performance benefits with some scarce use cases, for sustained performance appropriate cooling is more important than RAM '.

At least with those irrelevant Dhrystone/Whetstone you pulled out of the museum you solely tested compiler performance and not hardware by comparing numbers made in different years with different compilers and libs (since different distros).

[1] if a certain benchmark was a good fit 4 decades ago when it has been invented (Dhrystone in 1984, Whetstone even in the 70ies) then this is already proof that they're useless with any of today's use cases. The problems with both benchmarks are well known and for Dhrystone you find them even on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhrystone#Shortcomings

[2] https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/12/10 ... ent-588823 -- it's really funny to compare the ranking of different ARM cores when done somewhat correctly with the inflated DMIPS numbers for Cortex-A72 onwards listed on Wikipedia for example. Since almost every Dhrystone user ignores that it's essentially just a compiler benchmark. And this for decades already.

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 40545
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English, Korean
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 3004 times
Been thanked: 1668 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by odroid »

tkaiser wrote:
Wed Nov 09, 2022 5:39 pm
Maybe time to overthink your benchmarking 'methodology'?
Again, welcome back tkaiser. :D
We will run some other benchmarks with the same Jammy Jellyfish and the same Kernel version 6.0 on N2+ and N2L in the next week.

User avatar
istanbulls
Posts: 837
Joined: Tue May 14, 2019 10:18 pm
languages_spoken: Turkish
ODROIDs: ODROID; N2, C4, XU4, N2+, CH4
Location: Istanbul-Turkey
Has thanked: 499 times
Been thanked: 156 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by istanbulls »

odroid wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:43 pm
istanbulls wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 8:14 pm
tobetter wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 7:51 pm
mad_ady wrote:
Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:48 pm
I wonder if connecting a SPI memory to it would make it able to boot to petitboot?
Thank you for being a fan of Petitboot, unfortunately there is no pad for SPI flash memory on the board. :(
I'm really sorry about this news... odroid=petitboot
Personally, I definitely miss Petitboot too. :oops:
As far as I heard from B2B customers, Petitboot is very useful when performing various OS tests and evaluations for a new platform for 3 to 4 months, but after that, when applied to mass production, it is said that there is rarely a case of dynamically switching the OS.
Customers who use hundreds to thousands of SBCs per month are very price sensitive, so it was necessary to minimize the number of components.
I guess there's no need to be so sorry about petitboot. As far as I remember, there was an alternative method we used in C4, we could install petitboot on the uSD card, I think this trick will also work.

User avatar
mad_ady
Posts: 11200
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:00 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: XU4 (HC1, HC2), C1+, C2, C4 (HC4), N1, N2, H2, Go, Go Advance, M1
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Has thanked: 647 times
Been thanked: 1056 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by mad_ady »

I think petitboot's merit on this variant would be as a bootstrap for a network installer, so I do hope the C4 ODROIDBIOS could be adapted for this task.

Mz3D
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:53 am
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: N2
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by Mz3D »

What's the actual Ram speed? Are you guys planning to develop a case for it?

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 40545
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English, Korean
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 3004 times
Been thanked: 1668 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by odroid »

The N2L’s LPDDR4 RAM is running at 1608Mhz while N2’s DDR4 was running at 1320Mhz.
We have no plan to make a case.

Mz3D
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:53 am
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: N2
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by Mz3D »

odroid wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:50 pm
The N2L’s LPDDR4 RAM is running at 1608Mhz while N2’s DDR4 was running at 1320Mhz.
We have no plan to make a case.
But you'll release some stl file to print a case, right?

hominoid
Posts: 760
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:55 am
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C2, C4, XU4, MC1, N1, N2, N2L, N2+, HC4, M1, H2, H3+
Location: Lake Superior Basin, USA
Has thanked: 104 times
Been thanked: 345 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by hominoid »

Mz3D wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:18 pm
What's the actual Ram speed? Are you guys planning to develop a case for it?
The N2L will be added to SBC Model Framework and SBC Case Builder as soon as mine arrives which will make several case designs available for 3D printing.
These users thanked the author hominoid for the post (total 4):
tobetter (Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:16 am) • shanti (Fri Nov 11, 2022 2:24 am) • odroid (Fri Nov 11, 2022 1:15 pm) • domih (Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:55 am)

User avatar
rooted
Posts: 9971
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:12 am
languages_spoken: english
Location: Gulf of Mexico, US
Has thanked: 777 times
Been thanked: 581 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by rooted »

hominoid wrote:
Mz3D wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:18 pm
What's the actual Ram speed? Are you guys planning to develop a case for it?
The N2L will be added to SBC Model Framework and SBC Case Builder as soon as mine arrives which will make several case designs available for 3D printing.
Awesome

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 40545
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English, Korean
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 3004 times
Been thanked: 1668 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by odroid »

Mz3D wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 12:07 am
odroid wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:50 pm
The N2L’s LPDDR4 RAM is running at 1608Mhz while N2’s DDR4 was running at 1320Mhz.
We have no plan to make a case.
But you'll release some stl file to print a case, right?
We've posted FreeCAD and STL files on the WiKi page.
https://wiki.odroid.com/odroid-n2l/hard ... d_stl_file

phaseshifter
Posts: 3804
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 9:12 am
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: U-2,U3+,,XU-3,,XU3-LITE,,XU-4
C1+,,C-2,,,n2+2G and n2 4G
cloudshell I and shell II
N-1,,N-2,...other odroid acc`s as well..vu7 etc..all sorts of sbc`s these days
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 52 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by phaseshifter »

pity no infra red and where does the onboard dac audio pads come out ...pls i am getting old i guess its a nice kodi box also i cannot see an usb2 micro pity or maybe im blind again just ordered one to day from over there //....thx phase im just getting old i guess...///...
necessity the mother of all creation and invention..!!!..check out the world ...long live rock and roll.....

phaseshifter
Posts: 3804
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 9:12 am
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: U-2,U3+,,XU-3,,XU3-LITE,,XU-4
C1+,,C-2,,,n2+2G and n2 4G
cloudshell I and shell II
N-1,,N-2,...other odroid acc`s as well..vu7 etc..all sorts of sbc`s these days
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 52 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by phaseshifter »

@hominoid hello old mate long time since i seen that login well i dont see why not petitboot could run and i found that addon chip module the other day we added to the n-1...????

EDIT::: the old r.t.c.module boards will they adapt to the gpio`s...??????
Last edited by phaseshifter on Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
These users thanked the author phaseshifter for the post:
hominoid (Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:24 pm)
necessity the mother of all creation and invention..!!!..check out the world ...long live rock and roll.....

User avatar
mad_ady
Posts: 11200
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:00 pm
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: XU4 (HC1, HC2), C1+, C2, C4 (HC4), N1, N2, H2, Go, Go Advance, M1
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Has thanked: 647 times
Been thanked: 1056 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by mad_ady »

@phaseshifter It's likely tobetter can be persuaded to support it via ODROIDBIOS, like C4.

phaseshifter
Posts: 3804
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 9:12 am
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: U-2,U3+,,XU-3,,XU3-LITE,,XU-4
C1+,,C-2,,,n2+2G and n2 4G
cloudshell I and shell II
N-1,,N-2,...other odroid acc`s as well..vu7 etc..all sorts of sbc`s these days
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 52 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by phaseshifter »

was what i was thinking via a usd card
i have a usb 2 hub with eternet input so i think its 8192 rtl or something worked on others nin a jam...
i have my spi card still somewhere was looking at it the other day @tobetter
necessity the mother of all creation and invention..!!!..check out the world ...long live rock and roll.....

phaseshifter
Posts: 3804
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 9:12 am
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: U-2,U3+,,XU-3,,XU3-LITE,,XU-4
C1+,,C-2,,,n2+2G and n2 4G
cloudshell I and shell II
N-1,,N-2,...other odroid acc`s as well..vu7 etc..all sorts of sbc`s these days
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 52 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by phaseshifter »

ok so let me see j-2 is the spdif or is it a single mono output one pad is square other is round denoting rather one is hot...???? spdif i see on the 40 pin header or is it a mode switch for otg purposes i have not seen the schems but as an sort after kodi box i seen this unit today i spought after this unit hope somebody modds core elec to suit as i said nice kodi unit

EDIT sort of figured audio at first but look at the wiki ..j-1 =j-2 on the pic of the 40 pin page..just making an observation but yeah..its early days im shure it would not take much to boot of usb

well i check in time to time to see whats new.....
Last edited by phaseshifter on Wed Nov 16, 2022 11:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
necessity the mother of all creation and invention..!!!..check out the world ...long live rock and roll.....

User avatar
mctom
Posts: 2583
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:44 am
languages_spoken: english, polish
ODROIDs: OGA, XU4, C2, M1, H3+, SP3, Vu8M
Location: Gdansk, Poland
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 444 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by mctom »

phaseshifter wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:17 pm
ok so let me see j-2 is the spdif or is it a single mono output one pad is square other is round denoting rather one is hot...????
Neither. :) As far as I can remember these are two analog outputs for left and right channel. The common/ground wire is to be used from the GPIO header, I assume.
Punk ain't no religious cult, punk means thinking for yourself!

Maintainer of PiStackMon

User avatar
tobetter
Posts: 11383
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:55 am
languages_spoken: Korean, English
ODROIDs: Many
Location: Paju, South Korea
Has thanked: 779 times
Been thanked: 1934 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by tobetter »

mctom wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:31 pm
phaseshifter wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:17 pm
ok so let me see j-2 is the spdif or is it a single mono output one pad is square other is round denoting rather one is hot...????
Neither. :) As far as I can remember these are two analog outputs for left and right channel. The common/ground wire is to be used from the GPIO header, I assume.
Correct!!

phaseshifter
Posts: 3804
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 9:12 am
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: U-2,U3+,,XU-3,,XU3-LITE,,XU-4
C1+,,C-2,,,n2+2G and n2 4G
cloudshell I and shell II
N-1,,N-2,...other odroid acc`s as well..vu7 etc..all sorts of sbc`s these days
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 52 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by phaseshifter »

https://www.waveshare.com/w25qxx-dataflash-board.htm

the old board spi boot we weorked on the early days
necessity the mother of all creation and invention..!!!..check out the world ...long live rock and roll.....

phaseshifter
Posts: 3804
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 9:12 am
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: U-2,U3+,,XU-3,,XU3-LITE,,XU-4
C1+,,C-2,,,n2+2G and n2 4G
cloudshell I and shell II
N-1,,N-2,...other odroid acc`s as well..vu7 etc..all sorts of sbc`s these days
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 52 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by phaseshifter »

still have many addon bits for odroid like r.t.c and temp board ...etc..etc..//. @odroid
necessity the mother of all creation and invention..!!!..check out the world ...long live rock and roll.....

User avatar
odroid
Site Admin
Posts: 40545
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:14 pm
languages_spoken: English, Korean
ODROIDs: ODROID
Has thanked: 3004 times
Been thanked: 1668 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by odroid »

We've run a few more Phoronix benchmark tests as per one forum user requested. Note that all the benchmark utilize only the CPU computing without any GPU accelerations.
We freshly installed Ubuntu 22.04 image with the same Kernel version 6.0 and set the CPU clock at 2.4Ghz on both N2+ and N2L.
In my opinion, compared to the sbc-bench, this test result has been generated with much less synthetic conditions. ;)

As you can see the below comparison chart, the performance difference could be near 15% gain when a chunk of large DRAM data access appeared frequently while running benchmark software.
If not, the performance gain was negligible as we expected. 7-zip compression test showed less than 2% gain.
Image
These users thanked the author odroid for the post (total 2):
istanbulls (Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:08 am) • phaseshifter (Sat Nov 19, 2022 4:11 am)

tkaiser
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:30 am
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: C1+, C2, XU4, HC1
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 25 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by tkaiser »

odroid wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:54 pm
compared to the sbc-bench, this test result has been generated with much less synthetic conditions
But you get that sbc-bench is not an own benchmark but a small set of different benchmarks and measurement tools executed in a controlled environment to answer the question why numbers generated by passive benchmarking differ? sbc-bench's 'mission' is generating insights and not just graphs representing numbers without meaning. As such it would be really helpful if you could provide an URL from a 'MODE=extensive sbc-bench' run so we can have a look in detail how memory bandwidth and latency differ between N2+ and N2L (different DRAM initialisation BLOBs!).
odroid wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:54 pm
As you can see the below comparison chart, the performance difference could be near 15% gain when a chunk of large DRAM data access appeared frequently while running benchmark software.
Why did you choose those two GraphicsMagick tests out of the 450+ Phoronix test profiles? And where are the openbenchmarking URLs for these test runs?

What do these numbers represent? On openbenchmarking.org the highest GraphicsMagick/rotate score is from an Apple M2 with 1574 iterations/sec (your two boards showing at least six times higher scores) and the highest HWB Color Space score is from a Ryzen 9 with 1708 iterations/sec (your numbers 6.5 times higher).

No idea what you did but at least Dhrystone and Whetstone do definitely not show a single 'chunk of large DRAM data access' since both were known already decades ago to run completely inside caches of CPUs of that time.

BTW: to 'benchmark the benchmark' you could use one of your N1 or M1 boards with Rockchip's DMC (Dynamic Memory Interface) and execute those benchmarks with DRAM clocked at the highest and lowest clockspeed to confirm what's really happening and if DRAM clock has an influence on specific benchmarks or not.

See here with RK3588 for example (DRAM clocked at either 528 or 2112 MHz):
  • When measuring 'Dhrystones per Second' it's 32860262 vs. 32415115 on an A76 (DRAM clock has zero effect)
  • And on an A55 it's 10994401 vs. 11008762 (DRAM clock has zero effect)
The benchmarks included in sbc-bench at various DRAM clockspeeds have been benchmarked as well already: https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/sbc-ben ... 1309375720

Asides that your own mbw score showed a less than 11% gain in memory bandwidth. If everything else is the same and 7-zip numbers already confirmed memory latency hasn't improved significantly... how on earth should different DRAM clocking explain a difference of 15% in any benchmark score?
odroid wrote:
Fri Nov 18, 2022 3:54 pm
7-zip compression test showed less than 2% gain.
Are you sure we should call 2% difference 'gain' and not better 'result variation' or 'standard deviation'? :)

wtarreau
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:22 am
languages_spoken: english, french
ODROIDs: C2, GO, MC1, N2+, H3
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 7 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by wtarreau »

It's indeed a bit strange that memory has more effect on some tests which are not expected to depend on it.

I'm wondering if the N2+ really managed to run at 2.4 GHz. Maybe something for whatever reason blocked it at 2208 (the first test even suggests 2112) ?
You could run the mhz utility to verify this or just run sbc-bench since it's included in it as well. Or maybe for
whatever reason the N2L runs at more than 2.4 GHz here.

Another possibility is that the amlogic blob to control LPDDR4 also changes the L3 cache arrangement in a way that's more efficient. If so, maybe they could provide an update for the N2+ as well to benefit from this.

BTW, nice little compact board ;-)

iwantchai
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:12 am
languages_spoken: english
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by iwantchai »

Since the images are not cross compatible with N2+, can you provide some details of what changes are needed to the N2+ image bootloader files to get them to work with N2L ?

L67GS
Posts: 953
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:02 pm
languages_spoken: English, Jibberish, Pig Latin
ODROIDs: XU4, M1 8GB, C1+, (3) C0's, H3+, N2L 4GB, and a whole big pile of accessories, VU7A Plus,, MIPI-CSI Camera Kit, etc....
Location: Great Lakes Region, U.S.A
Has thanked: 295 times
Been thanked: 121 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by L67GS »

tobetter wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:42 pm
mctom wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:31 pm
phaseshifter wrote:
Wed Nov 16, 2022 8:17 pm
ok so let me see j-2 is the spdif or is it a single mono output one pad is square other is round denoting rather one is hot...????
Neither. :) As far as I can remember these are two analog outputs for left and right channel. The common/ground wire is to be used from the GPIO header, I assume.
Correct!!
I was under the impression analog audio wasn't ready to implement yet. Is it working?

User avatar
mctom
Posts: 2583
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:44 am
languages_spoken: english, polish
ODROIDs: OGA, XU4, C2, M1, H3+, SP3, Vu8M
Location: Gdansk, Poland
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 444 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by mctom »

L67GS wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:19 am
I was under the impression analog audio wasn't ready to implement yet. Is it working?
@tobetter has already used it in his project so I assume it's doable to say the least. :)
viewtopic.php?p=360061#p360061
Punk ain't no religious cult, punk means thinking for yourself!

Maintainer of PiStackMon

phaseshifter
Posts: 3804
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 9:12 am
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: U-2,U3+,,XU-3,,XU3-LITE,,XU-4
C1+,,C-2,,,n2+2G and n2 4G
cloudshell I and shell II
N-1,,N-2,...other odroid acc`s as well..vu7 etc..all sorts of sbc`s these days
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 52 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by phaseshifter »

i have not tried it i dont even have ubuntu gui on it it my kodi box i just my ouput from my screen ..um hdmi iguess which is basically spiff any way
basically i just ripped out the n2 boot section and pasted it into the n2l biit section did a few wxtra mods like a nocture fan cinstantly runnin via a 5 volt pin when the board is running temps are 38500-40500 on air with kodi running when i am just a console level there around 25000-28000 mark with my tall blue chip is a 2400 and 2016 or just flat out in the boot file..
necessity the mother of all creation and invention..!!!..check out the world ...long live rock and roll.....

User avatar
tobetter
Posts: 11383
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:55 am
languages_spoken: Korean, English
ODROIDs: Many
Location: Paju, South Korea
Has thanked: 779 times
Been thanked: 1934 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by tobetter »

mctom wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:24 am
L67GS wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:19 am
I was under the impression analog audio wasn't ready to implement yet. Is it working?
@tobetter has already used it in his project so I assume it's doable to say the least. :)
viewtopic.php?p=360061#p360061
I'd say it works technically, but you may need an amplifier after the pins.

phaseshifter
Posts: 3804
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 9:12 am
languages_spoken: english
ODROIDs: U-2,U3+,,XU-3,,XU3-LITE,,XU-4
C1+,,C-2,,,n2+2G and n2 4G
cloudshell I and shell II
N-1,,N-2,...other odroid acc`s as well..vu7 etc..all sorts of sbc`s these days
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 52 times
Contact:

Re: Introducing the small but powerful ODROID-N2L

Post by phaseshifter »

so it is an active output or low level...i am assuming from the comments abouve
necessity the mother of all creation and invention..!!!..check out the world ...long live rock and roll.....

Locked

Return to “General Topics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests