Odroid-Go v2

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lordhardware
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Odroid-Go v2

Post by lordhardware »

Is there any plans to continue the ESP line of products with the Odroid?

With the huge increase of RAM shown with the ESP32-S2 there is a possibility for a device that slots very neatly between the original Odroid (retaining compatibility with existing software) and the Odroid-Go Advance (without creating an underpowered android device).

Something with the above chip, with the same form factor as the original Go
- two additional buttons on the back
- a dedicated DAC and a headphone jack
would be absolutely perfect.


Does HardKernel have any plans for this SoC?
Last edited by lordhardware on Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by crashoverride »

lordhardware wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:12 pm
With the huge increase of RAM shown with the ESP32-S2 there is a possibility for a device that slots very neatly between the original Odroid (retaining compatibility with existing software) and the Odroid-Go Advance (without creating an underpowered android device).
Ironically, it turns out to be the exact opposite:
* ESP32-S2 has only 1 core instead of 2 in ESP32. The emulators are very dependent on the additional core.
* ESP32-S2 has less RAM than ESP32. It only has 320K instead of 520K (IRAM). While it can address more external PSRAM, that memory is slow (SPI).

https://www.espressif.com/en/news/ESP32 ... production
The ESP32-S2 chip is equipped with a 240 MHz Xtensa® 32-bit LX7 single-core processor with 320 KB of SRAM
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lordhardware (Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:12 pm)

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by lordhardware »

crashoverride wrote:
lordhardware wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:12 pm
With the huge increase of RAM shown with the ESP32-S2 there is a possibility for a device that slots very neatly between the original Odroid (retaining compatibility with existing software) and the Odroid-Go Advance (without creating an underpowered android device).
Ironically, it turns out to be the exact opposite:
* ESP32-S2 has only 1 core instead of 2 in ESP32. The emulators are very dependent on the additional core.
* ESP32-S2 has less RAM than ESP32. It only has 320K instead of 520K (IRAM). While it can address more external PSRAM, that memory is slow (SPI).

https://www.espressif.com/en/news/ESP32 ... production
The ESP32-S2 chip is equipped with a 240 MHz XtensaImage 32-bit LX7 single-core processor with 320 KB of SRAM
Well butter my buns, looks like I was looking at old rumour pages.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by sydarn2 »

I am bumping this thread as the esp32-s3 was announced by espressif:
https://www.espressif.com/en/news/ESP32_S3

I am not expecting any miracles. But it would be cool if there were a new revision of the GO. One which solves some problems with the existing one:
1. Properly attenuated speaker. It is way to loud.
2. Improved d-pad which makes it easier to do diaglonals.
3. More bandwidth to the display.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by crashoverride »

sydarn2 wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:19 am
esp32-s3 was announced
I plan to take a look at this when the S3 devkits start shipping. Preliminary review of the announcement suggests that it would still be challenging to implement a high speed display interface. The reason is same for the compromises required for the original ESP32: lack of GPIO. While 10 new pins were added, the SPI was increased to octal SPI (from quad). This means there are likely still not enough pins to provide a 16bit data path to a display.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by lordhardware »

One can dream Crash.


One can dream...

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by ducalex »

crashoverride wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:52 am
I plan to take a look at this when the S3 devkits start shipping. Preliminary review of the announcement suggests that it would still be challenging to implement a high speed display interface. The reason is same for the compromises required for the original ESP32: lack of GPIO. While 10 new pins were added, the SPI was increased to octal SPI (from quad). This means there are likely still not enough pins to provide a 16bit data path to a display.
It would be fantastic if you could find a way to use the parallel LCD interface, but even just having more addressable RAM and separate SD/LCD buses would open up the door for so many more games!

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by mad_ady »

You guys just hate Linux with a passion, don't you?

(kidding)

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by crashoverride »

If I remember correctly, the LX7 has Linux support.

The main points of interest in ESP32-S3 are:
1) Vector processor - Theoretically able to process multiple pixels simultaneously.
2) XIP PSRAM - Theoretically able to run code from PSRAM. This means much larger programs can be used and/or features can be added. This was the primary issue with the GBC emulator and the reason for the 'creative' sprite/tile caching code I wrote for it. It potentially could also allow the Bluetooth stack to be used for gamelink or headphones.
3) RISC-V ULP - A full featured ULP could potentially allow offloading of more tasks such as battery monitor and input polling. The ESP32 ULP was extremely limited and lacked features such as branching.
4) USB - Potential first class USB device support and firmware flashing. This would enable scenarios not possible with the USB-UART in ODROID-GO.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by sydarn2 »

crashoverride wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:43 am
It potentially could also allow the Bluetooth stack to be used for gamelink or headphones.
The esp32-s3 only provides Bluetooth LE 5.0, while Bluetooth LE Audio exists it is fairly new and at least certain features requires version 5.2 according [3]. That said I am not sure the S3 can't support it, but it seems less likely to do so out of the box.

Some interesting reading about Bluetooth LE Audio:
[1] https://www.bluetooth.com/learn-about-b ... /le-audio/
[2] https://www.bluetooth.com/learn-about-b ... fications/
[3] https://blog.nordicsemi.com/getconnecte ... h-le-audio

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by kelbot »

A revised Go with bluetooth audio and some other minor improvements would be great. It sounds like there is some potential for worthwhile improvements in a number of areas. I know a lot of people are thrilled with the new Advance and Super and I like them as well (I have an Advance 1.0) but I still really love my Odroid Go and use it a lot. The small size and dead simple operation of it make it still very worthwhile to me.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by ducalex »

crashoverride wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:43 am
2) XIP PSRAM - Theoretically able to run code from PSRAM. This means much larger programs can be used and/or features can be added. This was the primary issue with the GBC emulator and the reason for the 'creative' sprite/tile caching code I wrote for it. It potentially could also allow the Bluetooth stack to be used for gamelink or headphones.
BT audio already works on the GO. BT needing more of the internal ram causes some performance degradation but the real problem is the binary size. Each emulator is then +1.5MB and the lag of their stack is pretty bad :(

USB-OTG is certainly very exciting, it would allow user to see a virtual mass storage device for firmware updates/rom transfer. And JTAG-over-USB would be fantastic for us developers! (It doesn't work very well on the S2 but I'm sure they'll have it ironed out for the S3 :))

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by crashoverride »

I am thinking this will make a fun summer project (21Q3). Based on the timing of the ESP32-S2 from announcement (2019-09-3) to actual production (2020-02-28), the ESP32-S3 is likely 6 months away from being generally available.
https://www.espressif.com/en/news/espre ... -wi-fi-mcu
https://www.espressif.com/en/news/ESP32 ... production

The ESP32-S2 was pretty much ignored by me. The limited RAM, lack of Bluetooth, and introduction of cmake to the build system made it a "dead on arrival" part. However, since the S2 and S3 appear to share a lot of design, I began looking at the S2 datasheet to see what was possible.

Particularly relevant to this discussion is the new octal SPI that first appeared in S2. Although its not immediately obvious, there is a "mode" added to this hardware block for "8080 bus" communication with a LCD controller/panel. This uses 8 pins for data instead of the 16 required for RGB. It is the same protocol currently used over SPI in GO, just much faster. Furthermore, the LCD controller provides a "TE" (Tearing Effect) output that can signal when VBLANK has occured. The combination of these two offers the possibility of high speed, tear free rendering. I have ordered a S2 to explore whether this will work beyond theory.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by odroid »

Very interesting discussion since we've discontinued the original ODROID-Go last week due to very low demands these days.
Once you find a way to implement a tear free parallel 8bit 8080-ish LCD interface, let's consider relieving my favorite handheld ODROID. ;)
Meanwhile, I will try sourcing a 2.4" IPS-grade LCD module which has a 8bit data bus for the summer project festival.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by sydarn2 »

Very interesting indeed!

According to this article the esp32-s2 is supported by linux:
https://lwn.net/Articles/838807/

According to Cadence the LX7 improves common controller performance by 15%, I can only assume that it is compared to LX6:
https://ip.cadence.com/ipportfolio/tens ... stomizable

I really like the form factor of the original GO, but since @ducalex already have a snes emulator. Maybe it is worth considering snes button compatibility? And maybe form factor can still be retained...

Thoughts:
1. The 2 rubber buttons above A and B could be dropped to make space for additional 2 front facing buttons (system menus can be entered by combined pushing of the remaining 2 rubber buttons)
2. Perhaps the LR2 solution from the oga-be would be cheap enough to implement while still retaining the form factor. My preferred placement would be on the top part of the sides.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by ducalex »

In my benchmarks the ESP32-S2 (LX7) is pretty similar to the ESP32 (LX6) but memory access is faster. We can probably expect the same thing from the S3.
SNES is certainly more viable on the S3. It can address more ram and, if crashoverride is right, the executable PSRAM means I can write a dynarec :).

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by lordhardware »

The beauty of the original Go was its simplicity.

I kept going back to it because it couldn't do everything.

Although it would be great to play SNES games, SNES needs 4 extra buttons, not two.

I'd rather any replacement Go be able to play 2-button games well, not 4-button games ok.

I'd rather the dynarec make Neo Geo Pocket more possible, and decrease the latency which could make multiplayer more viable.

Apart from that it does everything I want and it does it well.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by sydarn2 »

By looking in the product selector/product comparison you can get a few more details about the esp32-s3:
http://products.espressif.com:8000/#/product-comparison

Sadly the DAC is still 8-bit.

The selector also says that SOC is sampling, but module is not available yet.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by ducalex »

I agree that from a gamer's perspective another ESP32-based system would be a weird choice. It wouldn't be that much cheaper than a retroarch/opendingux/etc-based one and yet be far less capable. That's why I'm not too hopeful that we'll get another one :(.

PS: Glad to catch you here, did you stop working on neogeo and is your progress available somewhere? I was considering picking up the port eventually.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by lordhardware »

ducalex wrote:I agree that from a gamer's perspective another ESP32-based system would be a weird choice. It wouldn't be that much cheaper than a retroarch/opendingux/etc-based one and yet be far less capable. That's why I'm not too hopeful that we'll get another one :(.

PS: Glad to catch you here, did you stop working on neogeo and is your progress available somewhere? I was considering picking up the port eventually.
I was basing it on

https://github.com/8bitpsp/race

I got it as far as running, but was struggling to get the display working, only reason I know it ran was I had a sfx line in the code after the display to test that and it played.

I'd be happy to send you what I had, but probably won't help much haha.
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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by millim »

may I also join the discussion here..

I like the Odroid GO, and what is all in it and about it. To me, it is exactly what it should be. A kit, making fun to assembly, learn hardware, software and System-on-Chip architecture, a kit getting more out of it not *Just* playing a game. The ESP32 is widely used and the software can be easily adapted. Maybe there is a smart watch version coming, playing games with gesture control? With the ESP32, one can do endless projects.

In case this is not the aim all of it, I would go for a second hand PC, install a Linux distro, install all the free emulators, done. Or even better, purchase a commercial solution of one of the big gaming providers. Or just take the mobile with all the processing power.

Maybe it is time to think about how we can motivate kids stepping into electronics shaping our future new. It is not just playing a game on a console, it is more about playing the game of life.

Sadly to hear, that the Odroid GO vision dies...

Regards
millim

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by lordhardware »

Looking at how incredibly interesting things like Mario Kart Live Circuit and other AR based solutions are made me extra excited about the prospect of Open Source gaming.

Sadly, without an easily accessible ESP32 emulator this doesn't particularly have the broadest appeal.

However it's a sight more exciting to build for than the OGA for me which is in essence a slow android chipset with an OK controller.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by sydarn2 »

millim wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:13 am
Sadly to hear, that the Odroid GO vision dies...
Wait a bit before declaring it dead.
If there is a new GO it needs advantages compared to the old one. Lets see what crashoverride finds out.
If a new GO based on S3 improves on the following I would certainly buy it, and maybe even 2 pcs.
* 50/60Hz tear free display
* Performance improvement by vector instructions, utilizing ULP core, faster memory...
* Solve small issues: sound attenuation, d-pad diagonals

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by leothetechguy »

I also saw the esp32-c3 on their website,

I'm not a coder, but since it is RISC-V based and basically a slower version of the s2 it might be an indication as to what we can expect from the ULP core of the s3.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by ducalex »

The ULPs (both the state machine and the RV32IMC) are very cool for some purposes but effectively useless for us. They chose a core that is very small on the die but also very slow, eg it takes ~20 cycles to do a load/store and ~80 cycles to do a multiplication, combined with its 8Mhz clock limits its usefulness to us.

That being said I, too, am looking forward to their new esp32-c3 line, a RISC-V mcu with their toolchain would be fantastic!

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by sydarn2 »

ESP32-S3 now have a product page stating:
"ESP32-S3 has additional support for vector instructions in the MCU, which provides acceleration for neural network computing and signal processing workloads. Developers can take advantage of these vector instructions through ESP-DSP and ESP-NN libraries to optimize their applications. ESP-WHO and ESP-Skainet SDKs will also support this acceleration."

Looking at the DSP library it already has functions for performing vector operations:
https://docs.espressif.com/projects/esp ... .html#math

Did anyone see if they are faster than for-loop based alternative?

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by sydarn2 »

There is a draft of the ESP32-S3 datasheet going around:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ESP32 ... V0.3En.pdf
Not searchable though, but it does mention an LCD-interface.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by crashoverride »

For future reference, I will leave a link to an issue I posted Jan 8, 2021. As of the time of this writing (Apr 13, 2021), it has yet to see any action:
https://github.com/espressif/esp-idf/issues/6371
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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by crashoverride »

sydarn2 wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:35 pm
There is a draft of the ESP32-S3 datasheet going around:
There is some interesting new information on p.20 (2.4.3 LCD Interface):
ESP32-S3 supports 8-bit ~ 16-bit parallel RGB, I8080 and MOTO6800 interface. These interfaces operate at 40 MHz or lower, and support conversion among RGB565, YUV420 and YUV411.
The speed and color space conversion ability are new information.

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by sydarn2 »

crashoverride wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:51 am
For future reference, I will leave a link to an issue I posted Jan 8, 2021. As of the time of this writing (Apr 13, 2021), it has yet to see any action:
https://github.com/espressif/esp-idf/issues/6371
Since they are now releasing a devkit with a display utilizing the 8080 interface, I assume they will also release software support for it.
https://www.espressif.com/en/news/SP32-S2-HMI-DevKit-1

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Re: Odroid-Go v2

Post by crashoverride »

sydarn2 wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 4:41 am
Since they are now releasing a devkit with a display utilizing the 8080 interface, I assume they will also release software support for it.
I looked into it and it appears they are using the old I2S LCD interface and not the new SPI LCD interface. I had an even older issue about that one! :lol:
https://github.com/espressif/esp-idf/issues/945

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