N1? or N2?

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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:31 pm

2ndSeb wrote:How do the NanoPC-T4 and the RockPro64 people do that? Is DDR vs LPDDR the big difference?


How/why do you expect people here being able to answer this question?

If you look at the flood of new RK3399 designs above viewtopic.php?f=149&t=31277&start=100#p230663 they all rely on LPDDR3 or LPDDR4 while the older ones (Firefly or https://www.theobroma-systems.com/rk3399-q7/overview ) use DDR3. What has happened? Maybe Rockchip provided in the past only a reference design with DDR3, then switched to a more recent one using LPDDR? And maybe Hardkernel simply started too early? Who knows? Who will tell?

You know that these boards all follow pretty closely SoC vendor's reference designs?

According to the Libre Computer guy redesigning a PCB takes 3 months at least and even then Hardkernel would've only 'yet another RK3399 thingy' and not as in the past a platform they own. All that's needed to make one board work with the OS images from another board using the same SoC is exchanging bootloader stuff (most of the times some BLOB doing DRAM initialization and controlling cpufreq/DVFS scaling, with some SoC families other than those HK uses there exist open source solutions) and DT (device-tree).

My NanoPC-T4 runs with 'Firefly kernel' and some DT adjustments (see above). No board vendor support needed at all. Once the SoC is supported by SoC vendor and there's a community around the SoC board makers can not use their own quality of software and support to differentiate their products from competitors any more.

If this vendor community here would generate some great OS images for an RK3399 based ODROID they would be 'ported' to any other RK3399 device within days if not hours.

And then customers are not able to compare prices. They do not get that HK need to have higher prices due to some extra margins their distribution channels need, they do not get that shipping costs, customs and VAT are part of the price they eventually pay but will instead simply compare list prices in online shops. How could an N1 at +100 bucks compete with a RockPro64 with same amount but faster DRAM and same config ($80 + $10 for the ASM1061 SATA card)? Same with NanoPC T4, they currently offer the 4GB version for 110 bucks with a great Wi-Fi chip and the same 16 GB eMMC on board HK sells separately as orange module.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:42 pm

meveric wrote:It has a 512GB SSD connected via SATA and it's so damn fast compared to the C2.
The SSD is so awesome when it comes to linking binaries or packaging :D


Well, with RK3399 utilizing all 4 PCIe lanes to access a fast NVMe SSD you would've even more fun. See last two lines in the table here: https://forum.armbian.com/topic/1925-so ... ment=51350

Both times RK3399 with DDR3, but slow PCIe attached SATA with RK's 4.4 kernel vs. mainline kernel with SSD access from this century (that's at least NVMe and not anachronistic AHCI/SATA designed for spinning rust decades ago)
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby meveric » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:21 pm

Probably, but dealing with the extremely slow C2 and it's USB2 BUS for a spinning HDD, compared to the N1 with SATA + SSD is already a big difference (probably about 10 times faster).
Aside from that, at some point the limiting factor is no longer the I/O but more likely the CPU/RAM.

These benchmarks are just that "benchmarks" they do not represent real-world use-cases and I/O speed is not everything that limits a systems performance ;)
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:33 am

meveric wrote:Probably, but dealing with the extremely slow C2 and it's USB2 BUS for a spinning HDD, compared to the N1 with SATA + SSD is already a big difference (probably about 10 times faster).


Sure, HDD suck at random IO. All of them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOPS#Mech ... ard_drives

I doubt that an average 2.5" HDD in an external USB enclosure shows more than 150 4K random IOPS. Using the same interface (still USB2) and just replacing spinning rust with an SSD will already improve random IO performance by magnitudes. See the RPi 2 numbers for 'USB2 without UAS', see Pine64 numbers for USB2 with UAS. No idea whether UAS is available with mainline kernel on ODROID-C2 but anyway: just by replacing an HDD with an SSD even behind an USB2 bus this will improve stuff like linking by magnitudes (25 times faster):

Code: Select all
                      Random IO in IOPS     Sequential IO in MB/sec
                        4K read/write           1M read/write
RPi 2                     2525/2667                30 /  30
Pine64 (USB2/UAS)         2836/2913                42 /  41
...
ASM1061 performance       9820/16230              330 / 330
RK3399-Q7 (NVMe)         11640/36900             1070 / 1150


Sequential performance differences aren't important here, it's all about random IO. When you look at these numbers and compare an USB2 attached SSD with PCIe-SATA as on the N1 then there's not that much improvement compared to switching from spinning rust to an SSD while keeping USB2.

And true: benchmarks never tell the whole story. The further improved numbers when comparing ASM1061 with a SATA SSD with a great NVMe SSD masquerade that here something more important happens at several layers:

* AHCI used by SATA is an ancient protocol from the past made for spinning rust. It's highly inefficient to deal with fast flash storage since everything is serialized
* SATA is crippled compared to other protocols like SAS or NVMe (unidirectional while the better protocols can write and read at the same time. This makes a huge difference with such workloads on fast flash storage where exactly this happens: writes and reads on the same storage media at the same time, something my benchmark numbers don't tell. But better benchmark tools like fio with appropriate test profiles would do)
* NVMe deals much more intelligent with CPU ressources (less CPU utilization at same performance level) and also solves the problem of IRQ affinity since IRQ handling lands on the same CPU core where the app process needing I/O resides

Your use case would clearly benefit from using a really fast NVMe attached SSD. But compared to your old C2 setup simply replacing the HDD with an SSD would also already have improved things a lot. To use HDDs these days for anything other than 'cold storage' now that SSDs are that inexpensive is IMO insane :)
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby vindicator » Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:18 am

@2ndSeb... GET OUT OF MY HEAD! :lol: (same)
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby back2future » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:07 am

@2ndSeb
You should never read any news about deca-core SoC's. :? :shock:

@tkaiser
While it's really interesting getting into these details 'bout hardware and design differences, there's probably more community interest with real world usages. Others like to compare kernel compile times. How about having a hardware benchmark kernel (module) compile routine, that is more comprehensive and comparable and could connect SoC vendor communities and OS related developers?
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:31 pm

back2future wrote:While it's really interesting getting into these details 'bout hardware and design differences, there's probably more community interest with real world usages.


LOL!

As long as average users don't get the difference between sequential and random IO nothing will change (since users are constantly mislead, look at the wrong numbers and then wonder why their setup is too slow since 'specs match'). Board makers could educate but why? Their users don't care anyway and are happy looking at MB/s while for the majority of use cases they should look for high IOPS instead. Results as expected: confusion.

A nice approach to estimate 'server performance' is using the 7-zip benchmark score (I do this in my day job too for a decade with big iron running Linux, Solaris, macOS and Windows -- these numbers are usable). https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/sbc-bench

And since you mentioned 'kernel compile times'. That's Willy Tarreau's (Linux kernel maintainer) approach: http://wiki.ant-computing.com/Choosing_ ... build_farm (he's also the one who discovered Amlogic's firmware cheating on us with ODROID-C2 years ago).
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby 2ndSeb » Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:05 am

tkaiser wrote: How/why do you expect people here being able to answer this question?

Never know who's roaming these paths... Also it didn't exactly stop you from contributing your two cents :D
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby back2future » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:41 am

tkaiser wrote:
back2future wrote:While it's really interesting getting into these details 'bout hardware and design differences, there's probably more community interest with real world usages.


LOL!

As long as average users don't get the difference between sequential and random IO nothing will change (since users are constantly mislead, look at the wrong numbers and then wonder why their setup is too slow since 'specs match'). Board makers could educate but why? Their users don't care anyway and are happy looking at MB/s while for the majority of use cases they should look for high IOPS instead. Results as expected: confusion.

A nice approach to estimate 'server performance' is using the 7-zip benchmark score (I do this in my day job too for a decade with big iron running Linux, Solaris, macOS and Windows -- these numbers are usable). https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/sbc-bench

And since you mentioned 'kernel compile times'. That's Willy Tarreau's (Linux kernel maintainer) approach: http://wiki.ant-computing.com/Choosing_ ... build_farm (he's also the one who discovered Amlogic's firmware cheating on us with ODROID-C2 years ago).


That's good progress. Thx for the links.
While reading someone's question for odroid 'bout real time kernel for a pretty ordinary xu4, thought 'bout my problems with latencies from time to time. Takes some seconds until the whole system (bionic upgraded, X11 and Qt5 like described in exynos5422 section, still "odroid 4.14.43-138 #1 SMP PREEMPT") reacts again. Compiled a 4.14.x kernel with latencytop¹ enabled, but that did not boot. Needs debugging, but not worth the effort just for sometimes every hour not having to wait for some seconds :oops: First time experienced, thought it's a system freeze :shock:
Probably it's a file system problem, if ram is on high usage, combined with low budget usb 3.0 flash and some bandwith peak going on for swap file content being updated. Probably some random varying file size I/O.
But 'til now did not find a simple tool for verifying if that's a main reason.
So if there would be a kernel module, modprobe'ing/insmod'ing on a system that's "online" for checking such things, not depending on special cpu (because we're here for rk3399 or Next) or suitable os version, that would be somekind of cool?
Thanks for reading @all

[wanted to proof myself wrong and created swap files on same system, but different fs partitions and low available ram (web browser): just for fun and interested one's
list order was bench chronology

f2fs (2nd partition),
time dd if=/dev/zero of=./swap500M count=51200 bs=10k, real 0m7.688s (524288000 bytes) 5x (0m5.603s to 0m11.316s)
time dd if=/dev/zero of=./swap500M count=500 bs=1M, real 0m9.300s (524288000 bytes) 5x (0m4.782s to 0m15.041s, recovery time >15-30s improves results?)
time dd if=/dev/zero of=./swap500M count=50 bs=10M, real 0m5.078s (524288000 bytes) 3x

/dev/shm, (most fun, 24.8 MB/s to 419 MB/s )
time dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/shm/swap500M count=51200 bs=10k, real 0m6.878s (524288000 bytes)
time dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/shm/swap500M count=500 bs=1M, real 0m6.358s (524288000 bytes)
time dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/shm/swap500M count=50 bs=10M, real 0m1.443s (524288000 bytes) (0m1.257s to 0m21.190s, but 3x(out of 5x) below 1.5s)

ext4 (3rd partition),
time dd if=/dev/zero of=./swap500M count=51200 bs=10k, real >0m4.878s(1st) (524288000 bytes) 5x (0m4.878s/0m9.014ss to 0m39.607s/1m9.731s)
sync, web broser closed, ~1600MB free ram,
time dd if=/dev/zero of=./swap500M count=500 bs=1M, real >0m6.255s (524288000 bytes) 5x (0m6.255s to 0m44.779s/1m24.868s)
time dd if=/dev/zero of=./swap500M count=50 bs=10M, real >0m5.013s (524288000 bytes) 5x (1m45.250s/~60s delay/0m4.855s/~10 delay/0m13.299s/~60s delay/0m5.013s/~10s delay/0m5.071s) , no case heat issues on usb 3.0 flash)
swapoff /dev/zram0 && swapon /dev/zram0 -p 3 ]

[ offtopic: 1) (4.14) kernel features talk viewtopic.php?f=146&t=31191 ]

DRAM market increase 2016 to 2017: almost double volume
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/08/d ... -year.html
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby ASword » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:29 am

So... its almost the end of August. Anyone else on pins and needles?
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby mix » Tue Aug 21, 2018 8:34 am

ASword wrote:So... its almost the end of August. Anyone else on pins and needles?


That depends. Is the N2 still supposed to be a replacement/upgrade/successor for the XU4 or is it something else?
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby N30dG » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:41 pm

ASword wrote:So... its almost the end of August. Anyone else on pins and needles?

Yes! refreshing this page every day to see if there are any News!
Can't wait to see the first specs. Really this new mysterious board drives me crazy.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby ASword » Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:52 am

mix wrote:
ASword wrote:So... its almost the end of August. Anyone else on pins and needles?


That depends. Is the N2 still supposed to be a replacement/upgrade/successor for the XU4 or is it something else?


Well that's a bit of an odd question, really. What do you mean by replacement/upgrade/successor? Based on the N1, it doesn't seem that HK is planning to build some kind of drop-in replacement, plus the XU4 still has quite a run left in it (they aren't EOL'ing it). So that rules out both "replacement" and "upgrade". As for "successor"... well it is a subsequent SBC from the same company, so... yes? But that says very little, except that any new product even vaguely like N1 would be that as opposed to "something else".
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby mix » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:03 am

ASword wrote:Well that's a bit of an odd question, really. What do you mean by replacement/upgrade/successor? Based on the N1, it doesn't seem that HK is planning to build some kind of drop-in replacement, plus the XU4 still has quite a run left in it (they aren't EOL'ing it). So that rules out both "replacement" and "upgrade". As for "successor"... well it is a subsequent SBC from the same company, so... yes? But that says very little, except that any new product even vaguely like N1 would be that as opposed to "something else".


Ok then. Enjoy your S905D2 board.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby rooted » Fri Aug 24, 2018 10:33 am

mix wrote:
ASword wrote:Well that's a bit of an odd question, really. What do you mean by replacement/upgrade/successor? Based on the N1, it doesn't seem that HK is planning to build some kind of drop-in replacement, plus the XU4 still has quite a run left in it (they aren't EOL'ing it). So that rules out both "replacement" and "upgrade". As for "successor"... well it is a subsequent SBC from the same company, so... yes? But that says very little, except that any new product even vaguely like N1 would be that as opposed to "something else".


Ok then. Enjoy your S905D2 board.
That is the C3 not the N2
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby ASword » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:21 am

mix wrote:
ASword wrote:Well that's a bit of an odd question, really. What do you mean by replacement/upgrade/successor? Based on the N1, it doesn't seem that HK is planning to build some kind of drop-in replacement, plus the XU4 still has quite a run left in it (they aren't EOL'ing it). So that rules out both "replacement" and "upgrade". As for "successor"... well it is a subsequent SBC from the same company, so... yes? But that says very little, except that any new product even vaguely like N1 would be that as opposed to "something else".


Ok then. Enjoy your S905D2 board.


I wasn't dismissing your question, I was hoping you would expand upon what you meant. Do you _want_ a replacement/upgrade, or do you want something else? What is something else to you? Did the N1 interest you, and if not, what would?

And, FWIW, the S905D2 doesn't look particularly compelling to me.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby rooted » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:29 am

ASword wrote:And, FWIW, the S905D2 doesn't look particularly compelling to me.


It looks like a natural progression for the C series, but certainly not X or N series.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby DarkBahamut » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:40 am

Only thing that's a little bit of a shame with the S905D2 is that it didn't move to the A55 core. Could have been a nice little uArch boost for possible C3 chip given that it also has a more modern GPU.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby rooted » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:01 am

DarkBahamut wrote:Only thing that's a little bit of a shame with the S905D2 is that it didn't move to the A55 core. Could have been a nice little uArch boost for possible C3 chip given that it also has a more modern GPU.
It has a really nice VPU as well
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:24 pm

Exynos 9810 looks interesting as well now that sources are available: https://www.cnx-software.com/2018/08/10 ... ragon-845/
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby mix » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:43 am

tkaiser wrote:Exynos 9810 looks interesting as well now that sources are available: https://www.cnx-software.com/2018/08/10 ... ragon-845/


I thought it was already stated that these cost too much and there is no hdmi, so Hardkernel couldn't use them.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=30841&p=222447
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby rooted » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:52 am

mix wrote:
tkaiser wrote:Exynos 9810 looks interesting as well now that sources are available: https://www.cnx-software.com/2018/08/10 ... ragon-845/


I thought it was already stated that these cost too much and there is no hdmi, so Hardkernel couldn't use them.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=30841&p=222447
It almost certainly cost too much but you can get HDMI over the USB Type-C.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby ASword » Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:20 pm

6-8GB of RAM would be pretty compelling though!
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:28 pm

mix wrote:there is no hdmi


There is HDMI: https://pastebin.com/2KhsQFKN (line 1028 -- the SoC implements DisplayPort designed to be backwards compatible to HDMI and DVI and this implementation even seems to be fit for a directly attached HDMI PHY)

mix wrote:https://forum.odroid.com/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=30841&p=222447


Is this a lesson in exegesis?
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby SACHOMAN69 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:26 pm

As Jennifer Lopez would say, and the N2 pa when jijijijijiji jijijijijiji we are at the end of August and has not yet released information about it
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby mad_ady » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:41 pm

It will be released when it will be released. And not a day sooner :)
The internet has spoiled us and made lose our patience...
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby veveaucent » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:43 pm

Not the end of August just yet. If they can't give us specifics by the 31st I do hope they give us an update timeline.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby mix » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:27 am

mix wrote:Is this a lesson in exegesis?


Maybe... viewtopic.php?f=54&t=30973&start=100#p232392
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tmihai20 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:43 am

Can the N1 boot from SATA? It would be an absolute stunner if it could, somehow. I plan to get a newer and better SSD and I would love to have an N2 that would be able to boot entirely from SATA). I do not know if any of you guys with N1 tested this.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby mad_ady » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:20 am

As far as I remember, not directly, it couldn't boot from sata (because it was pci attached I think), but Hardkernel was experimenting with a 16MB spi flash chip that could hold uboot and kernel and that could be used to boot from flash and load root filesystem from hdd. They were also playing with petitboot to enable multiboot.

I hope they will consider it for n2 as well.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tmihai20 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:49 pm

I did some reading afterwards and I found out that we cannot shake the microSD card. I would love to be able to give up the microSD card. I do not want to get too excited about N2, but I am waiting for it anxiously :D
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby FbS » Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:51 pm

veveaucent wrote:Not the end of August just yet. If they can't give us specifics by the 31st I do hope they give us an update timeline.


2 days to go.....hope the news will be good (can't wait for a new toy...)
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tkaiser » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:46 pm

tmihai20 wrote:Can the N1 boot from SATA? It would be an absolute stunner if it could


Huh? It's a matter of driver support in the bootloader and for which market the SoC has been designed. Of course RK3399 u-boot lacked support for anything else than (e)MMC and cheap SPI flash but when you choose the right SoC for the job why should this be stunning? All my Marvell Armada based boards (SoCs for storage and network use cases) boot from whatever you want: USB3, SATA, network, eMMC... even SD cards!

If the SoC vendor doesn't need specific boot device support for the target markets (which smartphones, tablets or TV boxes have SATA? I only know of some RealTek based ones) why should they pay engineers to write drivers and test stuff nobody needs (a few thousand Linux users do not exist in their world of millions of Android devices needing to be sold).

So if the N2 is not based on a NAS/router SoC (likely or not?) why should there be SATA support (and PCIe support when the SoC is not SATA capable as it was with N1)? If the SoC vendor doesn't care you just have to wait a few years until community kept up. It always worked this way: the older the SoC the more mature the software support (seriously good luck to all forum users eagerly waiting for an N2 based on a brand new ARM SoC)
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tmihai20 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:01 pm

@tkaiser: you are correct. I would just like for N2 to have an SPI so we can use a SATA based SSD for the root filesystem. We all know new SoCs are not the best recommendation, but I want a new device to tinker with and to challenge me. When N2 will have reached a certain point of maturity, then I will make XU4 an emulation station and I will use N2 as the main device in my house.

I know about the Marvell Armada devices, but I really do not need 4 Gigabit Ethernet ports and those devices are quite expensive. I know N2 will not boot natively from SATA, that is why I said that I would be amazed if it would.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby elatllat » Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:48 am

tmihai20 wrote:...use a SATA based SSD for the root filesystem...

This can be done on most any SBC, you likly mean without loading the kernel off an eMMC/SDCard/SPI first, but why would you care? there is no monetary or security advantage.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby crashoverride » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:14 pm

tmihai20 wrote:I want a new device to tinker with and to challenge me.

This exactly what I want too!

There are tons of "SomethingPi", tons of "Intel I-SomethingMeaningless", etc. boards out there. I want something NEW! Building the ultimate ARM based NAS is simply not a goal I share.

With Machine Learning and AI continuing to grow, I think SATA is of far lesser concern for a MODERN ARM SBC. The focus of today and tomorrow will be on GPU (OpenCL) algorithms and AI acceleration. While making a NAS should be possible on N2, it should not be limited to it.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tmihai20 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:18 pm

I will not use N2 just as a NAS. It will be too powerful for that purpose only. Just as @crashoverride said, there are more things to be done with a powerful SBC, besides having a new device to play with. I may even keep XU4 as a NAS and use N2 to experiment with.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby FbS » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:53 pm

There are lots of motivations for the N2...

I need for instance to buy at least 2 as desktop pc replacements where the "PCs" are used for web browsing alone...C2 can already do the job, but a bit more of punch would be welcome for those java-ressources-hungry websites...

I believe that in many cases, PCs are no longer required, and devices such as the N2, that you can leave "on", ready to be used, because they don't draw much power, are much more convenient as a web browsing station than PCs..( not to mention that you can leave a linux guest account in all hands without fear that someone screws up everything, and that is not the case with windows..)
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby FbS » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:43 pm

odroid wrote:
I think we can unveil the N2 specification and test results by end of August and start the mass production in September.

Ok, here we are at the very end of August , so the N2 specs will be..[rolling drums....]
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby meveric » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:51 pm

FbS wrote:
odroid wrote:I think...

It never was a firm commitment :P
Donate to support my work on the ODROID GameStation Turbo Image for U2/U3 XU3/XU4 X2 X C1 as well as many other releases.
Check out the Games and Emulators section to find some of my work or check the files in my repository to find the software i build for ODROIDs.
If you want to add my repository to your image read my HOWTO integrate my repo into your image.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby jesusrp » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:09 pm

Too much waiting, a new situation update (explanation) would be quite good for everyone.

Best regards
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby mad_ady » Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:26 pm

Odroid is still on vacation. We'll probably hear from him early next week.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby RomaT » Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:32 pm

I'm tired of waiting in uncertainty and took ROCKPro64 on RK3399 4GB LPDDR4, PCI-E x4 …
with eMMC 32GB, PCI-E SATA on ASM1061 and with a magnificent casing
Attachments
case.jpg
case.jpg (58.71 KiB) Viewed 1545 times
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby moon.linux » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:33 pm

Odroid N1 has 2 sata port they need to tidy up the cable for sata port i.e. move to e-sata interface to be more effective.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby back2future » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:13 pm

crashoverride wrote:
tmihai20 wrote:I want a new device to tinker with and to challenge me.

This exactly what I want too!

There are tons of "SomethingPi", tons of "Intel I-SomethingMeaningless", etc. boards out there. I want something NEW! Building the ultimate ARM based NAS is simply not a goal I share.

With Machine Learning and AI continuing to grow, I think SATA is of far lesser concern for a MODERN ARM SBC. The focus of today and tomorrow will be on GPU (OpenCL) algorithms and AI acceleration. While making a NAS should be possible on N2, it should not be limited to it.


Still with existing hardware there are already challenges that could be worked on?
Considering compression/decompression or emulation or compiler software running on more or less idling gpu cores, because there is gain for improvement already inside that hardware.

"* algorithm speedup between 1991 and 2013 for mixed integer solvers was 580,000 times, while the hardware speedup of peak supercomputers increased only 320,000 times.
&&
Given the rate and the magnitude of algorithm evolution, many of those alternative AI chip designs may become obsolete even before their commercial releases. AI algorithms of tomorrow might demand different compute architectures, memory resources, data-transfer capabilities, etc."
https://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?sect ... id=1333617
"In other words, are we dealing with “known unknowns” or “unknown unknowns”?"

Give that thing another spin, Odroid will ask "Are our customers (and we have been seen like contributing customers) informed and prepared well enough for our new Next power SoC?"
That's more likely multi perspective view, than a fixed point, we suppose. Which one do You prefere?

One thing we know about DRAM: There's high demand
https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1333644

[ 4inside: modeun web saiteuneun manhwa yehuleul pil-yolohabnida.
https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?do ... 32862#msgs
Sorry (for lighter moments distraction), but found another meta-historical vision for 21./22. centuries
https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?do ... _number=13 ]
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby crashoverride » Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:43 am

back2future wrote:Given the rate and the magnitude of algorithm evolution, many of those alternative AI chip designs may become obsolete even before their commercial releases. AI algorithms of tomorrow might demand different compute architectures, memory resources, data-transfer capabilities, etc."

ARM SoCs have relatively short lifespans (~2.5 years). They are also relatively low cost when compared to the $1000+ price tag of PCs. This means they are disposable. Should algorithms outgrow the hardware, you simply throw the board away and get a new one.

Since HardKernel does not design the SoCs in its products, debate about SoC features is moot. You get what you get.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby kafan1986 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:39 am

Specs and any initial benchmarking? We are waiting
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby back2future » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:44 am

crashoverride wrote:
back2future wrote:Given the rate and the magnitude of algorithm evolution, many of those alternative AI chip designs may become obsolete even before their commercial releases. AI algorithms of tomorrow might demand different compute architectures, memory resources, data-transfer capabilities, etc."

ARM SoCs have relatively short lifespans (~2.5 years). They are also relatively low cost when compared to the $1000+ price tag of PCs. This means they are disposable. Should algorithms outgrow the hardware, you simply throw the board away and get a new one.

Since HardKernel does not design the SoCs in its products, debate about SoC features is moot. You get what you get.


Maybe they started designing a Hardkernel SoC and became their own fabless licenser (and demanded their chip manufacturer into a NDA)? What a surprise that would be.
And yes, got your point. Like to keep RAM parts (still limited ressources for a while) and upgrade SoC.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby ASword » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:24 pm

back2future wrote:Maybe they started designing a Hardkernel SoC and became their own fabless licenser (and demanded their chip manufacturer into a NDA)? What a surprise that would be.


LOL... clearly you've not been close to (or in) silicon design teams and companies.

No, HardKernel and similar companies ride on the backs of the economies of scale that come from the consumer electronics industry (smartphones, smart TVs, etc). They can survey the market for what the actual silicon design companies have already designed and are producing in the fabs, and they try to select from what they find and build an interesting low-cost board around it to sell to the much much more niche SBC market. That could potentially spawn a new consumer electronics product which grows enough to be bought by (or able to request a SoC design from) a silicon design company, but that is exceedingly rare (offhand can't think of an example).

So the question we're here waiting for an answer to with bated breath is: which SoC has HK signed an NDA for so they can produce their next N design?
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby rooted » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:15 am

There are a few companies that build products using Odroid devices.

I am excited to know what SoC we're looking at for the N2 as well.
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