N1? or N2?

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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby InspecteurGadget » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:10 pm

Why not integer directly Wifi and BT and gps?
Like HiKey970 board =)
Last edited by InspecteurGadget on Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby mad_ady » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:31 pm

InspecteurGadget wrote:Why not integer directly Wifi and BT and gps?
Price and limited performance. Users who don't need them will have to pay for them and disable them
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby memeka » Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:54 pm

It would be great to have a mpcie port for wifi/bt cards tho :)
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby InspecteurGadget » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:15 pm

yes 2 mpcie port is ideal =)
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby elatllat » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:51 pm

Maybe the N3 can be RISC-V.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby rooted » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:33 pm

elatllat wrote:Maybe the N3 can be RISC-V.
Interesting story on RISC-V and how ARM tried a bit of preemptive sabotage

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/1 ... v_website/

I don't think Hardkernel is at a place (financially) where they could design an entire SoC, would be cool though.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby elatllat » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:06 pm

I was thinking they could partner with somebody who is building a new SOC to boost sales / reduce cost, or piggyback off one of the big players involved.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby ASword » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:31 am

elatllat wrote:I was thinking they could partner with somebody who is building a new SOC to boost sales / reduce cost, or piggyback off one of the big players involved.


That's what they are doing, only it is ARM-based. Its not clear that the RISC-V architecture offers any real advantages, and it is a young and immature ecosystem without any industry big backers. I think HK is far better off going with a SoC designed for the Smartphone or TV/console market.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby elatllat » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:59 am

ASword wrote:... Its not clear that the RISC-V architecture offers any real advantages...

Open hardware/source has clear advantages as evidant by running all modern computers; from Wikipedia;
All Intel chipsets post-2015 are running MINIX 3 internally

In the long run it wins every time.


ASword wrote:... without any industry big backers...


From Wikipedia;
A partial list of organizations that support the RISC-V Foundation includes: AMD,[13] Andes Technology, BAE Systems, Berkeley Architecture Research, Bluespec, Inc., Cortus, Google, GreenWaves Technologies, Hewlett Packard Enterprise, Huawei, IBM, Imperas Software, ICT, IIT Madras, Lattice Semiconductor, Mellanox Technologies, Microsemi, Micron, Nvidia, NXP, Oracle, Qualcomm, Rambus Cryptography Research, Western Digital, and SiFive

I'd call those as big as industry gets.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby Apokalypz » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:42 pm

elatllat wrote:Open hardware/source has clear advantages as evidant by running all modern computers; from Wikipedia;
All Intel chipsets post-2015 are running MINIX 3 internally



Wow, did not know that, thanks for the info. I always assumed they used an in-house brew RTOS or something. Probably easier for the NSA to gain access to than an RTOS anyway.

My opinion on the N1:
I would love to have seen it come out this month, I'm getting ready to replace my XU4 NAS W/ 2 USB3 HDD enclosures for something more streamlined. I was gonna build a mini case for this + the HDDs and the 2 sata connectors were what I was waiting for. But alas, not going to happen. I'll probably go with the rock64pro (same chipset and has a pcie connector for a dual sata card.)...if it ever gets released...probably having the same problems as HK. Though, as much as I'd like to see the N1, at 2GB ram you'd be competing with your own NAS boards you just released. Plus, Odroid-N is a flagship line, 2GB wouldn't really be acceptable for a flagship now a days.

My opinion on the prospective N2:
If I get one, it'll be to replace my NAS, so 2 satas or a pcie slot is a must for me. Otherwise, pack in as much performance and ram as you can muster. Maybe even change the name to Odroid-(omega symbol)1 to imply it's flagship status. Then the N1 can come out if you find another ram chip supplier then respin the board and you will have a mid range (N1) and flagship (omega1). Midrange could be the most affordable ($99-) while the flagship can be as expensive as it needs to be ($100+) because people will pay for performance: https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/03/nvidia-prices-its-jeston-xavier-ai-platform-developer-kit-at-1299/
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby ASword » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:44 pm

elatllat wrote:
ASword wrote:... Its not clear that the RISC-V architecture offers any real advantages...

Open hardware/source has clear advantages as evidant by running all modern computers; from Wikipedia;
All Intel chipsets post-2015 are running MINIX 3 internally

In the long run it wins every time.


Yeah, in the long run. Not in the N2 timeframe. And software is a different ballgame than hardware. Minix3 inside the Intel chipsets isn't as interesting as you seem to think it is.

elatllat wrote:
ASword wrote:... without any industry big backers...


From Wikipedia;
A partial list of organizations that support the RISC-V Foundation includes: AMD,[13] Andes Technology, BAE Systems, Berkeley Architecture Research, Bluespec, Inc., Cortus, Google, GreenWaves Technologies, Hewlett Packard Enterprise, Huawei, IBM, Imperas Software, ICT, IIT Madras, Lattice Semiconductor, Mellanox Technologies, Microsemi, Micron, Nvidia, NXP, Oracle, Qualcomm, Rambus Cryptography Research, Western Digital, and SiFive

I'd call those as big as industry gets.


Uh huh. They're supported the research, and often the mentioned "support" is pretty weak. By industry big backers, I mean companies taking the technology to market in realized products. Those don't exist yet, and won't in the near-to-mid-term.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby back2future » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:09 pm

Support for USB OTG and Embedded Host for N2 could be of interest for enhanced connectivity.
http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego
[ Would add up to 5$ depending on SoC abilities. ]
Last edited by back2future on Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby elatllat » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:14 pm

ASword wrote:...near-to-mid-term.

That's why I said N3.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby deric.venra » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:41 pm

Interesting news. Can't wait to hear more.

Now just have to have some more patience, which they say is a virtue..
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby tobetter » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:19 am

What if SPI flash memory can be on board, what size would be preferred? My opinion is up to 4~8MB which only contains a super-powered bootloader.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby moon.linux » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:19 pm

@tobetter: what about kernel binary image it's growing day by day. u-boot + kernel image on spi flash should be ok.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby ASword » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:41 am

moon.linux wrote:@tobetter: what about kernel binary image it's growing day by day. u-boot + kernel image on spi flash should be ok.


The kernel changes much too often. I would like an SPI flash that is just enough to boot from any attached storage, and then transfer control there. Ideally this flash would be written once and never again in order to ensure its maximum possible lifespan.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby elatllat » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:38 am

Just lable the micro sdcard "SPI flash" and all it perfect.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby mad_ady » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:42 am

If only you could buy really cheap 128M microsd cards...
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby elatllat » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:58 am

If you are using spi to boot a SSD ($63 to $2000) $8 is not going to bother you,
and if you are not going to boot an external drive you need a SDCard (or eMMC) anyway,
and if you already have an external drive you might already have an SDCard,
and the amount of extra time burned by implementing and using SPI might be more than the cost of the SDCard.
sure some might want it, I just don't see any value in it.
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby ASword » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:42 am

I don't care about the cost of the SDcard, I just don't want anyone monkeying with the bootstrap device (i.e. removing/replacing the sd card). How about not using a flash device, but instead an EEPROM or whatever the modern version is?
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby elatllat » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:09 am

ASword wrote:I don't care about the cost of the SDcard, I just don't want anyone monkeying with the bootstrap device (i.e. removing/replacing the sd card). How about not using a flash device, but instead an EEPROM or whatever the modern version is?

SDcard + potting epoxy ?
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby elatllat » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:38 am

A new Firefox feature requires 16GB of RAM... guess that's not going to be available on an ARM SBC anytime soon.


https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/2 ... _reporter/
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Re: N1? or N2?

Unread postby ASword » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:43 am

elatllat wrote:A new Firefox feature requires 16GB of RAM... guess that's not going to be available on an ARM SBC anytime soon.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/2 ... _reporter/


Hmmm... that's just a dev build, not really a "new feature".

Epoxy the SD card: I didn't say I didn't also want to be able to use the SD card slot...
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