[Split] Importance of Resolution switching - using a 4K TV.

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[Split] Importance of Resolution switching - using a 4K TV.

Unread postby rooted » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:41 pm

MOD EDIT Split from LE 7.1.3 thread.
Note: The ODROID C2 running LE Kodi can Resolution switch from 1080p > 4K seamlessly.

wrxtasy wrote:5) The Android OS itself on any Android device, cannot Resolution switch. Must be done manually for True 4K output.
This is very important when it comes to 480/720/1080p > 4K video content upscaling. 4K TV's do a better job upscaling.


What does that mean? My TV is an Android TV device and it switches to 4K automatically.

Could you elaborate further on point 5?
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Re: LibreELEC 7.1.3 - Kodi Jarvis - February update

Unread postby wrxtasy » Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:02 am

I'm talking about Android media players boxes like the Mi Box, WeTek devices, nVIDIA Shield, C2's - all running flavours of Android and Kodi.
Android TV's may be different if you see different behavior.

To test:
For Android media players - In Android Settings, set 1080p60Hz. Run Kodi and enable refresh rate switching. Now play some 4K video and see what resolution is fed by the media player to your 4K TV from info in its OSD..

From what I'm seeing this Android App Resolution switching issue is still not fixed even in Android Nougat:
http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid ... pid2181629
http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=269521
http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid ... pid2522694
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Re: LibreELEC 7.1.3 - Kodi Jarvis - February update

Unread postby rooted » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:21 am

wrxtasy wrote:I'm talking about Android media players boxes like the Mi Box, WeTek devices, nVIDIA Shield, C2's - all running flavours of Android and Kodi.
Android TV's may be different if you see different behavior.

To test:
For Android media players - In Android Settings, set 1080p60Hz. Run Kodi and enable refresh rate switching. Now play some 4K video and see what resolution is fed by the media player to your 4K TV from info in its OSD..

From what I'm seeing this Android App Resolution switching issue is still not fixed even in Android Nougat:
http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid ... pid2181629
http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=269521
http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid ... pid2522694

Thanks for elaborating.

I think my TV may be upscaling everything to 4K, I really don't know since 4K is so new to me.
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Re: LibreELEC 7.1.3 - Kodi Jarvis - February update

Unread postby wrxtasy » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:54 am

Thats EXACTLY what you want. The TV Superior Upscaling Hardware to be used when viewing 480/576/720/1080p video content on a 4K TV screen. You want this content to be fed to the TV at 1080p (or lower).

Kodi has relatively poor GUI and video, bi-linear upscaling. If you hard select a 4K user interface resolution, you can usually see Soft picture output results on a 4K TV, vs a superior, sharper GUI when the user interface is left at 1080p.

Because of this Soft 4K picture output, you need a device that can do dynamic Resolution Switching AND only output 4K video at a 4K Resolution when needed. This is where Android falls flat on its face for seamless 4K use. Resolution switching is broken.

This all depends on how much you value 4K picture quality. Some people simply don't care which is fine as well ;)
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Re: LibreELEC 7.1.3 - Kodi Jarvis - February update

Unread postby rooted » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:10 am

I am happy with the output at all times (HDR is really nice) so from what you just said the TV must indeed be upscaling everything or I would have noticed something by now.

Thanks for the information wrxtasy, I don't want to stuff up your LE thread with my Android shenanigans.
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Re: LibreELEC 7.1.3 - Kodi Jarvis - February update

Unread postby tosh123 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:05 pm

wrxtasy wrote:Thats EXACTLY what you want. The TV Superior Upscaling Hardware to be used when viewing 480/576/720/1080p video content on a 4K TV screen. You want this content to be fed to the TV at 1080p (or lower).

Kodi has relatively poor GUI and video, bi-linear upscaling.

Resolution change is indeed a feature, which I would wish on android, but on upscaling you are wrong, SPMC f.e. recommented "Lanczos3 - optimised" instead "bi-linear" or "Bob Inverted". and i doub't that you will see a difference to that, what the TV does.
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Re: LibreELEC 7.1.3 - Kodi Jarvis - February update

Unread postby wrxtasy » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:37 pm

Lanczos3 - optimised is only any good if you have the CPU horsepower to actually be able to implement it with reliability. All AMLogic / Amazon - Android 4K devices using SPMC will not be able to use that sort of upscaling at all.

Now try the demanding Lanczos3 - optimised upscaling whilst also trying to also use high quality YADIFx2 (full motion) Software deinterlacing on 480/576i(SD) TV content at a 4K resolution and see Android devices buckle at the knees.

Koying with SPMC has purposely only implemented YADIF (half motion) deinterlacing by default I suspect because of this issue.

I use YADIFx2 with LE Kodi Jarvis 7.1 576i OTA TV content, that is then upscaled by my 4K TV all the time.

These are all complicated workarounds. Nothing beats properly implemented Resolution switching for quality, simplicity and reliability when used with a 4K TV.
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Re: LibreELEC 7.1.3 - Kodi Jarvis - February update

Unread postby rooted » Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:50 pm

tosh123 wrote:
wrxtasy wrote:Thats EXACTLY what you want. The TV Superior Upscaling Hardware to be used when viewing 480/576/720/1080p video content on a 4K TV screen. You want this content to be fed to the TV at 1080p (or lower).

Kodi has relatively poor GUI and video, bi-linear upscaling.

Resolution change is indeed a feature, which I would wish on android, but on upscaling you are wrong, SPMC f.e. recommented "Lanczos3 - optimised" instead "bi-linear" or "Bob Inverted". and i doub't that you will see a difference to that, what the TV does.

He knows what he is talking about, he has a 4K set and several different Kodi devices.

Obviously wrxtasy can distinguish a difference or he wouldn't have stated it. If you follow his links you will see one of the head kodi devs said kodi ui scaling is crap.
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Re: LibreELEC 7.1.3 - Kodi Jarvis - February update

Unread postby tosh123 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:27 pm

rooted wrote:
tosh123 wrote:
wrxtasy wrote:Thats EXACTLY what you want. The TV Superior Upscaling Hardware to be used when viewing 480/576/720/1080p video content on a 4K TV screen. You want this content to be fed to the TV at 1080p (or lower).

Kodi has relatively poor GUI and video, bi-linear upscaling.

Resolution change is indeed a feature, which I would wish on android, but on upscaling you are wrong, SPMC f.e. recommented "Lanczos3 - optimised" instead "bi-linear" or "Bob Inverted". and i doub't that you will see a difference to that, what the TV does.

He knows what he is talking about, he has a 4K set and several different Kodi devices.

me too

Obviously wrxtasy can distinguish a difference or he wouldn't have stated it.

he is talking about bi-linear filtering and this sucks i agree

If you follow his links you will see one of the head kodi devs said kodi ui scaling is crap.

thats why i'm mentioned SPMC and not KODI, because SPMC offers "Lanczos3 - optimised" in videos
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Re: LibreELEC 7.1.3 - Kodi Jarvis - February update

Unread postby tosh123 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:42 pm

wrxtasy wrote:Lanczos3 - optimised is only any good if you have the CPU horsepower to actually be able to implement it with reliability. All AMLogic / Amazon - Android 4K devices using SPMC will not be able to use that sort of upscaling at all.

good to know, so we have to avoid AMLogic chips or Amazon devices


Koying with SPMC has purposely only implemented YADIF (half motion) deinterlacing by default I suspect because of this issue.

we are talking about upscaling, not deinterlacing
https://github.com/koying/SPMC/wiki/Recommended-video-settings-for-SPMC,-NVIDIA-Shield-TV-and-UHD-(4K)-TVs-with-4K-GUI
"SPMC has HQ scalers that can be enabled to improve video quality. "Lanczos3 - optimised" is the best HQ video scaling method."
I have no stuttering or other visible effects on my shield that shows, that the Android device is on its knee.
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Re: LibreELEC 7.1.3 - Kodi Jarvis - February update

Unread postby wrxtasy » Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:04 pm

Upscaling to 4K has to include ALL 480/576/720/1080 video content be it Progressive or Software/Hardware decoded and Software deinterlaced.

Software deinterlacing and Software decoding use CPU cycles - so does Lanczos3 - optimised. These two combined together load up the CPU. Unless you have specifically tested this combo together, you cannot say a device works properly.

You cannot just pick out what content you want upscaled if you want a media player to handle everything seamlessly.
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Re: LibreELEC 7.1.3 - Kodi Jarvis - February update

Unread postby tosh123 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:10 pm

wrxtasy wrote:Upscaling to 4K has to include ALL 480/576/720/1080 video content be it Progressive or Software/Hardware decoded and Software deinterlaced.

Software deinterlacing and Software decoding use CPU cycles - so does Lanczos3 - optimised. These two combined together load up the CPU. Unless you have specifically tested this combo together, you cannot say a device works properly.

You cannot just pick out what content you want upscaled if you want a media player to handle everything seamlessly.

OK, interisting.
I had the opinion that deinterlacing is only needed for interlaced stuff like TV streams, wich produces two halfpictures (picture 1 with 1280x360 and picture 2 with 1280x360 wich needed to combined to 1280x720 for example). I don't understand right now if you scale a 1280x720x24fps movie to 3840x2160x24fps what the "deinterlacing" will do?
And besides that, what is your critism against Lanczos3 - optimised what SPMC uses and what flawlessy runs on shield without stuttering?
For my eyes the Shield produces the same quality of picture as the Odroid C2 on that scaled material.
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Re: LibreELEC 7.1.3 - Kodi Jarvis - February update

Unread postby rooted » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:27 pm

The Shield is far from typical hardware, it's about 10 times (CPU) more powerful than most other Android TV hardware.
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Re: LibreELEC 7.1.3 - Kodi Jarvis - February update

Unread postby tosh123 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:46 pm

rooted wrote:The Shield is far from typical hardware, it's about 10 times (CPU) more powerful than most other Android TV hardware.

Shield was included in this thread:
http://forum.odroid.com/viewtopic.php?f=144&t=24923&p=179807#p179659
I don't like the staying on 4k resolution - instead of switching also, but the argument was: the result of this are a bad picture quality because there is only bi-linear upscaling. And this (with SPMC) is wrong.
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Re: The importance of Resolution switching when using a 4K T

Unread postby wrxtasy » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:59 pm

And SPMC still has not been tested with the High Quality SD YADIFx2 Software deinterlacing and a Software decoding combo PLUS using Lanczos3 - optimised. All done at the same time to really load up the CPU itself. As I said before you have to include all types of video content when testing in all possible configurations.

There is a reason why Lanczos3 - optimised was implemented in SPMC in the first place - because of numerous user reports of poor "Soft Picture" video output results when using media player only hardware upscaling.

Away from Kodi/SPMC for a moment...

Now what do you think happens when Android Apps such as Netflix are run at a 4K resolution and display 1080p content. There is no Lanczos3 - optimised there to help out those sort of Android Apps, they have to put up with poor media player upscaling because there is no Android Apps Resolution switching available. This is the problem for 4K Android platforms that try to be all in one box solutions.
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