ODROID-C3

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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby rooted » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:31 pm

hugolp wrote:
rooted wrote:Actually with the latest libreelec you can put the c2 in low power mode.


What power consumption you get in idle then?

I haven't seen it measured.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:47 pm

I have been browsing recent kernel updates from Amlogic courtesy of LibreELEC and two things of interest are present:

1) USB3.0
https://github.com/LibreELEC/linux-amlogic/blob/amlogic-3.14.y/arch/arm64/boot/dts/amlogic/gxm_q201_2g.dts#L841-L860

2) Hardware HEVC encoder
https://github.com/LibreELEC/linux-amlogic/blob/amlogic-3.14.y/arch/arm64/boot/dts/amlogic/gxm_q201_2g.dts#L345-L357

I have no idea what chip that is, but its 8 core so probably the S912 family.

Also of interest is that meson-timer has been officially replaced by armv8-timer:
https://github.com/LibreELEC/linux-amlogic/blob/amlogic-3.14.y/arch/arm64/boot/dts/amlogic/mesongxm.dtsi#L163-L169
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby rooted » Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:24 pm

Hardware HEVC and USB3 would be great.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby nobe » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:35 am

gxm = s912

according to this commit message : https://github.com/LibreELEC/linux-amlo ... 98f73af2b0

gxm_q201_1g (Q201 + 912 + 1G DDR)
gxm_q201_1g (Q201 + 912 + 2G DDR)
gxm_q200_2g (Q200 + 912 + 2G DDR)


now the question is : does this s912 actually support USB3 it or not ?
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:10 am

I suspect its a S912 with a letter after the name. According to the device tree, it is indeed one USB3.0 controller and one USB2.0 controller on board. The key thing is the mention of USB3 PHY. You can have a USB3 controller, but with a USB2 PHY, it is effectively a USB2 port. The USB3 PHY uses the new pins in the USB3 connector for high speed USB3.0.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby rredline » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:32 am

crashoverride wrote:
rredline wrote:It is unthinkable a modern SBC without Wi-Fi in-built.

HardKernel offers a variety of USB WiFi adapters in their store. The fact there is not a single offering further illustrates the diversity of user's needs. Since adding USB WiFi is both trivial (plug in a USB device) and inexpensive ($5.50), the optimal solution for everyone is to offer WiFi as an option rather than a "tax" for those that will not use it. On device that include built in WiFi, most users will disable it in preference of a more capable (5Ghz) USB offering anyway.


Couldn't agree an this.
The radio can be turn-off easily in OS.
Current ESP/Realtek chips are so cheap that it hardly tax on the cost.
An in-built Wi-Fi provides a "sure works" assurance to the end-user. It removes all the hassle of finding compatible USB dongles, troubleshooting driver issue, etc.
Sure, we can purchase an USB Wi-Fi dongle from hardkernal later if we need it, but hardly anyone would do it given the high shipping cost.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby rooted » Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:05 am

rredline wrote:An in-built Wi-Fi provides a "sure works" assurance to the end-user. It removes all the hassle of finding compatible USB dongles, troubleshooting driver issue, etc..


The thing is it doesn't, the Pi 3 WiFi is a perfect example.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby rredline » Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:31 am

rooted wrote:
rredline wrote:An in-built Wi-Fi provides a "sure works" assurance to the end-user. It removes all the hassle of finding compatible USB dongles, troubleshooting driver issue, etc..


The thing is it doesn't, the Pi 3 WiFi is a perfect example.


Ignore it just because Pi 3 didn't do it right?
This reason is silly.

The reason Pi 3 incl. Wi-Fi clearly shows what the community is asking for.
At least their voice is heard.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby rooted » Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:05 am

I said a perfect example, I actually would like onboard Wi-Fi mate.

Pi Foundation does not listen, and they lock and often delete threads on their forum. Hardkernel listens much more in my experience.

I am a maintainer and admin for the XBian project, I have plenty of experience with Raspberry Pi and their community.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby hugolp » Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:56 pm

rredline wrote:
rooted wrote:Ignore it just because Pi 3 didn't do it right?
This reason is silly.

The reason Pi 3 incl. Wi-Fi clearly shows what the community is asking for.
At least their voice is heard.


I agree with hardkernel position, I do not want onboard wifi. It is a waste.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby Jojo » Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:01 pm

hugolp wrote:
rredline wrote:
rooted wrote:...


I agree with hardkernel position, I do not want onboard wifi. It is a waste.

There is nor HK position in your quote. Actually it is not waste, but in your opinion it might be.

And because there are many different demands and opinions, I proposed an "option system": So those who like to have the "WiFi onboard" (just an example!), they could order this specific option.
Then there would be less reasons for people to complain about "stuff they pay for, but never need".
How to ask questions the smart way:
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:06 pm

Jojo wrote:I proposed an "option system"

There currently is an "option system": if you want WiFi, buy an Odroid (or 3rd party) USB Wifi adapter and plug it in. The official WiFi adapters are just as supported as a built-in WiFi would be.

Even the $5.50 WiFi Module 0 should be twice as fast as the RPi3 built-in WiFi.
http://www.hardkernel.com/main/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G145431421052

Based on experience with other boards with built-in WiFi, every one of them has some crippling limitation. Its better for customers to be able to choose a WiFi product that supports the features they need. While most think all WiFi adapters are the same, they can actually have quit different capabilities. Unless you work for the manufacturer, it can also be difficult to get upgraded firmware. This means the mass produced, generally available USB WiFi chips are far better supported by Linux drivers.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby Jojo » Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:39 pm

@crashoverride
Yes, generally you are right. But my proposition about some kind of "option system" would not be limited to onboard Wifi (here). Also my previous post about onboard Wifi was just an "example", for things that could be optional. And to be honest: to simply buy an USB device is not my understanding of an "option system" for board hardware (one would never say, that an ODROID has a rocket launcher option plus a few million more hardware options, just because the USB devices are all out there ;) ).

The goal of my idea was just to give people less reasons to complain and give them a few more degrees of freedom.
How to ask questions the smart way:
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby shuckle » Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:03 pm

I also doubted the usefullness of included wifi, but I have changed my opinion after working with RPi 3 for a while now.
It has prooved to be very practical to have that built-in wifi always present. And it was also a very positive surprise to find that build-in bluetooth.
For example the new LightBlue devices now officially support RPi3 (http://punchthrough.com/bean/guides/nod ... stall-rpi/) and this is only because of the build-in bluetooth. It makes life easier to other people to provide add ons when the hardware is known. As mentioned most wifi/bluetooth dongles have "features" and it is very much easier if you know which device is always available.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby rredline » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:06 am

After Pi 3, BeagleBone Black has also adopted the wireless route.
https://beagleboard.org/black-wireless
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Wed Sep 28, 2016 7:20 am

rredline wrote:BeagleBone Black has also adopted the wireless route.

It also adopted a $10 price increase even after removing the ethernet port.

[edit]
Actually, its $13.75 more expensive with the only change being WiFi+BLE.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby shuckle » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:25 pm

I very much hope odroid-c3 does not drop ethernet port. Gigabit ethernet is a major competitive factor. It is the reason I choose odroid instead of Rpi when doing disk based backup systems.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby mix » Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:47 pm

I think the goal of the C3 should be to reduce price but not reduce performance. If the S905L exists, could it be used to get Android 7.0/Linux 4.4 functionality and reduce the board price to the less than or equal to the Raspberry Pi 3? Might the SoC or silicon improve enough so the the S905L could clock to 2 Ghz?
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby emu_can » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:26 pm

S905L seems to be a good alternative for lowering the price. But it doesn't support the Gbit Ethernet. :(

How about C2-Lite at $29?
Reduce the memory to 1GB and remove the USB hub IC. There will be only two USB host ports without OTG as C0. But keep the Gbit LAN.
It must be a great board for many IoT embedded application(for mass-production) as well as cheap Kodi machine with the nice LibreElec image.

But I have two questions.
1. Is 1GB RAM enough to playback 4K HEVC on HDMI 2.0 UHD TV with Kodi?
2. Is it feasible price?
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:35 am

3GB was mentioned earlier in this thread for S912. It appears to be real:
http://www.cnx-software.com/2016/10/01/review-of-r-box-pro-tv-box-with-3gb-ram-part-1-unboxing-and-teardown/
I checked the RAM part numbers from the pictures with the manufacturer specs. However, there are still no sightings of 5Gbs USB 3.0 on a S912 board.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crossover » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:15 pm

emu_can wrote:How about C2-Lite at $29?

I don't like it.
I believe S905X or S912 with 3GB RAM at $45 seems to be much more attractive.
But I think S912 Octa-core looks quite ugly. Stupid Little-Little 1.5Ghz-1Ghz Cortex-A53 architecture makes slower performance with much higher temperature probably.
I don't guess S912 has the USB 3.0 PHY in the chip. So... if the S905X is much cheaper than S912, S905X can be a way to go.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby tchiwam » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:17 pm

Thumbs up for more memory and potential USB3
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby wbartussek » Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:07 pm

Building clusters, 3GB RAM and USB3 would be essential, but -please- just a heat sink; no moving parts!
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby elatllat » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:00 pm

wbartussek wrote:...but -please- just a heat sink; no moving parts!

No heat sink is to large.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby rooted » Sun Oct 16, 2016 2:23 am

elatllat wrote:
wbartussek wrote:...but -please- just a heat sink; no moving parts!

No heat sink is to large.

I wouldn't say that :)

Image
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:49 am

Since S912 is a big.LITTLE design, I thought it would be worth mentioning this:
http://www.mono-project.com/news/2016/09/12/arm64-icache/
Some ARM big.LITTLE CPUs can have cores with different cache line sizes, and pretty much no code out there is ready to deal with it as they assume all cores to be symmetrical.


I still want a S912 board though! I check the forums everyday hoping to see an announcement. While I would like USB3 and 3GB of RAM, my interest is primarily the modern GPU. Hopefully, it will enable OpenCL and Vulkan on this low cost device.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby elatllat » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:46 am

rooted wrote:
elatllat wrote:
wbartussek wrote:...but -please- just a heat sink; no moving parts!

No heat sink is to large.

I wouldn't say that :)
http://hackedgadgets.com/wp-content/zal ... cooler.jpg


No Fan. Think of it as a fancy pedestal to place the SOC on.
Image[
Last edited by elatllat on Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby rooted » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:07 am

The fan is to cool you off while you work.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby elatllat » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:20 am

rooted wrote:The fan is to cool you off while you work.

move closer to a planetary pole.
It's not getting cooler any time soon.
http://xkcd.com/1732/
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby rooted » Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:11 pm

elatllat wrote:
rooted wrote:The fan is to cool you off while you work.

move closer to a planetary pole.
It's not getting cooler any time soon.
http://xkcd.com/1732/

OMG, Pokémon went extinct in 8600 BCE
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby indium » Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:20 am

crashoverride wrote:Since S912 is a big.LITTLE design, I thought it would be worth mentioning this:
http://www.mono-project.com/news/2016/09/12/arm64-icache/
Some ARM big.LITTLE CPUs can have cores with different cache line sizes, and pretty much no code out there is ready to deal with it as they assume all cores to be symmetrical.


I still want a S912 board though! I check the forums everyday hoping to see an announcement. While I would like USB3 and 3GB of RAM, my interest is primarily the modern GPU. Hopefully, it will enable OpenCL and Vulkan on this low cost device.


LITTLE.LITTLE. :D
Actually, this bug (of gcc), is more relevant to aarch64, than to HMP. And it is totally a gcc bad. aarch64 enables user code to do some cache maintenance (why?), and gcc happily puts its hands on it, to show up, it is freaking cool. But. It does it wrong and lame. It is not the case on the armv7 big.LITTLE systems, like XU4, where the architecture just doesn't let user code to do this. I mean, this "problem" mentioned in that post is not as about the really complex mutithreading programming as they put it, rather it is about the very self-confident approach of gcc taken with respect of the new aarch64 "features". Because, come on, they forgot there are not only new cache maintenance thingies, but also possibly differently sized caches on different clusters. And that a thread might be switched between those clusters with HMP. But this is an essential architectural feature. Not that hard to memorize about. If they overlooked it, this means they behaved arrogantly, shame on them.
With a53, though, this never could happen, because:
TRM on Cortex-A53 wrote:The L1 Instruction memory system has the following key features:
• Instruction side cache line length of 64 bytes.
• 2-way set associative L1 Instruction cache.
• 128-bit read interface to the L2 memory system.

It only can have 64 byte I-cache lines (D-cache too).
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:52 am

If you follow the links in the article:
https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/pull/4204
https://github.com/hrydgard/ppsspp/pull/8769
The chip where this is an issue is the Exynos 8890 in the Galaxy S7 which is a "custom Samsung big core" combined with Cortex-A53.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby indium » Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:40 am

crashoverride wrote:If you follow the links in the article:
https://github.com/dolphin-emu/dolphin/pull/4204
https://github.com/hrydgard/ppsspp/pull/8769
The chip where this is an issue is the Exynos 8890 in the Galaxy S7 which is a "custom Samsung big core" combined with Cortex-A53.

It would be an issue on every big.LITTLE SoC, where big cluster cache line size differs from the one of LITTLE. I meant, S912 is not that, because it is a53 only. Right? Like rk3368, 2 identical a53 clusters.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby rooted » Mon Oct 17, 2016 7:59 am

I thought little.LITTLE was a joke, I guess it isn't.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:05 am

indium wrote:I meant, S912 is not that, because it is a53 only. Right? Like rk3368, 2 identical a53 clusters.

I do not know if the clusters are symmetrical (but clocked differently) or not on S912. The Amlogic website does not even list S912 as an official product so there is not any official documentation/specs. We don't know (publicly) if there is USB3 or not or whether it supports 3GB RAM or not (and under what conditions). I hope they are symmetric clusters, but if they are not, at least we know what to watch out for.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby mi7chy » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:42 am

Makes sense to go Rockchip 3399 now since the work has already been done for ChromeOS/Linux that also runs Android and it has USB 3 and PCIe. ChromeOS, btw, offers the best browser and in-browser video performance of all the OS' that I've used. An SBC with that capability will be my next purchase.

http://www.cnx-software.com/2016/10/15/samsung-chromebook-pro-powered-by-rockchip-rk3399-soc-to-sell-for-499/
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:45 pm

The is a bit of price difference there from $40 S905 to $500 Rockchip 3399. :o
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crossover » Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:02 pm

I want to see a HK's SBC based on RK3399 in near future. My acceptable price range is $60~$70 if it comes with 4GB RAM and Kernel 4.4(or up)
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby indium » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:20 am

crossover wrote:I want to see a HK's SBC based on RK3399 in near future. My acceptable price range is $60~$70 if it comes with 4GB RAM and Kernel 4.4(or up)

4GB RAM with cortex-a72 SoC for 60-70$? Right. As much as everybody loves free things, I should admit, this is just blatant.
I will be happy if it fits into 100$.
(I suggested rk3399 here few pages before. (but of course - NOT because of google's crafts - chlorobooks, chlorophOS and stuff :lol: because of a72 inside, bitches! :D))
Last edited by indium on Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby indium » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:22 am

crashoverride wrote:The is a bit of price difference there from $40 S905 to $500 Rockchip 3399. :o

To be honest, it's the price for the entire google junk, not for the only rockchip rock in it. And, of course, a72 license costs a lot more than a53, so, kind of no surpise here.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby indium » Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:28 am

crashoverride wrote:I do not know if the clusters are symmetrical (but clocked differently) or not on S912. The Amlogic website does not even list S912 as an official product so there is not any official documentation/specs. We don't know (publicly) if there is USB3 or not or whether it supports 3GB RAM or not (and under what conditions). I hope they are symmetric clusters, but if they are not, at least we know what to watch out for.

Let them decide on what frequnecy they have chosen to be max. :lol: To not get "confused" at the later points.
And finally, it is enough to know it is a Cortex-A53 IP. Because the latter has strictly defined (and not configurable for licensees) cache line size of 64 bytes.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:56 am

I am all for product diversity. If Rockchip is cost effective then I welcome a low-cost Odroid using it. However, at the $100 price range, it becomes far more attractive to "just use an Intel chip".
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby nobe » Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:07 am

@crashoverride @indium
if i understand things correctly, a brand new kernel patch will "fix" this cache line bug
http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/li ... 61824.html
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby mix » Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:46 am

It's not clear to me, does the C3 have to be an Amlogic SoC?
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby mi7chy » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:14 am

crashoverride wrote:I am all for product diversity. If Rockchip is cost effective then I welcome a low-cost Odroid using it. However, at the $100 price range, it becomes far more attractive to "just use an Intel chip".


Intel is more practical in general but efficiency isn't as competitive as ARM and it tends to be lacking in hardware accelerated video decoding. RK3399 in comparison is capable of 10-bit 4K 60fps h265 HEVC and VP9.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby hugolp » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:12 pm

mi7chy wrote:
crashoverride wrote:I am all for product diversity. If Rockchip is cost effective then I welcome a low-cost Odroid using it. However, at the $100 price range, it becomes far more attractive to "just use an Intel chip".


Intel is more practical in general but efficiency isn't as competitive as ARM and it tends to be lacking in hardware accelerated video decoding. RK3399 in comparison is capable of 10-bit 4K 60fps h265 HEVC and VP9.


Skylake solves the video acceleration part, but is is true Intel is less power efficient and also tends to be pricey.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby crashoverride » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:19 pm

This post makes it sounds like even Intel chips are not well supported by mainline.
http://linuxiumcomau.blogspot.com.au/2016/10/running-ubuntu-on-intel-bay-trail-and.html
attempts to use Linux based operating systems have resulted in the loss of HDMI audio, wifi and bluetooth. I've attempted to address this with a series of Ubuntu ISOs and kernel patches.

One issue that has been reported with Linux kernel versions newer than 3.16 on Bay Trail processors is a random freeze where the whole system hangs. Unfortunately no complete fix currently exists however if you encounter freezes an accepted workaround is to limit the processor (CPU) to a certain power state, or 'C-state', if such freezes are encountered.

(Note that 3.16 is also the kernel C2 uses)
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby ksenchy » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:03 pm

Odroid C2 has enough performance, memory and good enough graphics... Actually more than enough.

All this board needs for me to buy it, is USB 3.0 as currently LAN transfers are limited to 30MB/s. With USB 3.0 I would be limited to gigabit Ethernet port, which translates to 125MB/s, which is fine, most if not all external hard drives are not that fast. The usually stop at 90-100 MB/s.

I use C1 as my torrent box, then trasfer contents to PC. For this reason I will skip C2 and all od it's successors until one one with usb 3.0.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby LordConrad » Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:33 am

For the C3, I think that either the Exynos 7650 or 7870 would be a good choice. I prefer the 7650 with the two A72 cores.
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Re: ODROID-C3

Unread postby phaseshifter » Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:11 am

in all honesty the c-2 should have had a dual usb-3 and the dual usb-2..but that is my opp
..but they ..had it easier to make keeping most of the c1+ design work and footprint if you will..
running XU-4--VU-8c..-T.S.D.P--75W.
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