Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby kicker22004 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:36 am

No need to work on getting Minecraft running on glshim as it's been done already and as expected it is no where near actual OpenGL as far as speed. But this is off topic now so I'll leave it. I've stated what I'd like from XU5.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby neeeds » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:33 am

odroid wrote:What do you guys think about a reasonable/marketable price range with above high-end specifications?


We are a digital signage company searching for media players. if the gpu and the video codecs are supported we are ready to pay the price.

Thank you.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby tchiwam » Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:56 pm

odroid wrote:What do you guys think about a reasonable/marketable price range with above high-end specifications?


I will buy myself a TX1 for my main work station, opengl being the important bit here for me.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby elatllat » Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:31 pm

A TX1 kit is $500;
http://www.siliconhighwaydirect.co.uk/c ... s/1817.htm

or there is a small form factor for $174 + $326
http://www.wdlsystems.com/Computer-on-M ... n-TX1.html

So I don't think odroid can compete on the high end (or the low end $5 pi0) so it should continue with cheap mid range... though the TX1 lacks usb 3.1 c , and the pi lacks low power sleep mode though the udoo has that.

What no one is selling is hdmi 5" to 10" 1080p oled or eink of which plenty are made for phones/readers but none for SBCs.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby alliancemd » Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:48 pm

Let's be realistic, you don't need USB C on such a board, nor DisplayPort, M.2 and 8GB...

I think the price should be <100$. I personally won't buy a more expensive board, it goes into the "i5/i7 mini PC" area...
And the specs to have at least these:
- Samsung Galaxy S5-S6 processor
- 2-4 GB RAM
- Ethernet 1000 Mbps(Most countries in Europe have at least 1 Gbps internet speed)

XU4 really needs an update. I wanted to buy U4 but I heard that XU4 is being released.
After seeing that it is almost the same as U4, I decided I'll wait for the next higher performance board... Waited to long...
Please update the CPU.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby rooted » Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:19 pm

I have an S5 and the Snapdragon 801 isn't much if any better than the Exynos 5422.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby tchiwam » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:45 pm

My point here is, I am willing to pay for OpenGL support.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby hugolp » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:55 pm

alliancemd wrote:Let's be realistic, you don't need USB C on such a board, nor DisplayPort, M.2 and 8GB...

I think the price should be <100$. I personally won't buy a more expensive board, it goes into the "i5/i7 mini PC" area...
And the specs to have at least these:
- Samsung Galaxy S5-S6 processor
- 2-4 GB RAM
- Ethernet 1000 Mbps(Most countries in Europe have at least 1 Gbps internet speed)

XU4 really needs an update. I wanted to buy U4 but I heard that XU4 is being released.
After seeing that it is almost the same as U4, I decided I'll wait for the next higher performance board... Waited to long...
Please update the CPU.


Displayport allows to drive two screens from one connector by chaining them, unlike hdmi, so it is interesting for people looking for a low power desktop option.

For the rest I agree, specially I do not see the point of usb c.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby elatllat » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:57 pm

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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby Umbreon » Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:06 pm

For the next board, please don't use a USB hub. It's better to have one USB 3 than two or more USB 3 with a hub.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby m132 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:53 am

Umbreon wrote:For the next board, please don't use a USB hub. It's better to have one USB 3 than two or more USB 3 with a hub.


+1! No integrated hub, but an USB OTG port fully capable of working in host/peripheral modes, like in phones and XU3.

Also, new Exynos SoCs now support PCIe, so at least one Thunderbolt 3 port would be nice if it's possible.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby tchiwam » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:23 pm

I have to disagree here, USB3 with 2 ports is very needed and their hub is fast enough for me.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby swiftmas » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:08 am

I definately love the under $100 dollar form factor. that is still a must. That and being able to be battery powered. I could love some more ram, but 2g has been doing just fine. i'd really like to see hardware with good compatibility too. Being able to utilize more of the ubuntu software features for arm would be awesome as I am one who uses these boards in a laptop setting. I'm on month 3 and still choose it over my mac laptop(8 years old now).
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby m132 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:00 am

tchiwam wrote:I have to disagree here, USB3 with 2 ports is very needed and their hub is fast enough for me.


You can buy a seperate USB3 hub, while it's really hard (if even possible) to desolder internal one to get USB peripheral mode back.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby crashoverride » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:37 am

All modern SoC's have more than a single USB port. There is no reason one can not be dedicated to OTG and the other connected to a hub as done in C1/C2. There is no use that I know of for having two OTG ports on a device.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby m132 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:41 am

Using OTG to emulate 5GbE, or mass storage to install operating systems on multiple machines at once would be nice, also hub adds additional overhead, limiting speeds and increasing latencies. As a compromise, newer Exynos SoCs come with two PCIe x4 interfaces, I suggest to attach an USB 3.0 (or even better, 3.1) controller to one, that supports multiple ports out-of-the-box.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby tchiwam » Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:46 am

m132 wrote:
tchiwam wrote:I have to disagree here, USB3 with 2 ports is very needed and their hub is fast enough for me.


You can buy a seperate USB3 hub, while it's really hard (if even possible) to desolder internal one to get USB peripheral mode back.


But then I need extra bits I don't want to add ;) 8x to 32x external USB hubs ... No thanks
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby bleedingedge » Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:45 pm

It would be great if the power source is drawing from usb type-c
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby TCB13 » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:44 am

You guys are asking way to much! I would be happy with:

- 2Ghz, 64 bit CPU
- 4GB of RAM
- 2x USB 3.0
- 1x Gigabit ethernet

(Specially if the last two actually performed at their top speeds...)
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby sonicxtacy02 » Sat Aug 13, 2016 12:33 am

Going from the X2 to the XU4, the primary things I'd like to see the XU5 add are analog audio (3.5mm, just like the X2), and OTG support. HDMI Audio limits applications for the XU4 and having to use USB audio as a supplement introduces gremlins that are a hassle to deal with (speaker pop on initialization, clicking and popping during playback, sudden/random disconnections, HDMI plug and play conflicts)
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby phaseshifter » Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:26 pm

i would like to see in the next XU series board

1: ic2 bus the same as the c-1 series
2: otg support
3: 2 x usb2 ports as well as 2 usb3 ports
3: 3 or 4 gig of ram with extra but not maybe 2g dedicated to the vide chip
4: better videochipset
5: perhaps a faster cpu ...i dont read up on the cpu`s compatable but just a faster quad or oct core..
6: dual emmc support for 2 emmc cards one for the system amd one as you prfer to utilize it as another ram drive or just storage...
7: onboard ir led chipset...
8: that is all i can think of atm...i may add to this at a latter day...
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby hugolp » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:00 am

New Exynos architecture, although it will be probably not for the XU5 but for later ones: http://www.anandtech.com/show/10590/hot ... -disclosed
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby alpha_one_x86 » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:00 am

hugolp wrote:New Exynos architecture, although it will be probably not for the XU5 but for later ones: http://www.anandtech.com/show/10590/hot ... -disclosed

Seam worse than A57 than worse than A72. And for 12W is too many.

I like the Exynos 7 Octa 7870 + 8GB RAM, 1000Mbps ethernet.
Any date? I need buy 50 unit more, I wait this to choose.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby hugolp » Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:23 pm

Samsung wants to use AMD or Nvidia GPUs in its Exynos chipsets, plans to ditch Qualcomm for good in 2018

http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_wants_t ... -20441.php
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby meveric » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:13 am

That would take way too long. I would want a new Exynos board somewere in 2017. Maybe Q2 2017 or so would be nice.
In the meantime Mali would be ok.. Mali T8xx series comes with new features. It can use Mali-V and Mali-DP co-processors for video en-/decoding and display handling and compositioning, scaling, rotating, etc.
http://www.cnx-software.com/2014/10/28/ ... processor/

Maybe an Exynos 7 Hexa 7650 or Octa 7880? I bet the Exynos M1 would be way too expensive. But also the 7880 could be too much.
But Exynos 7 Hexa 7650 looks nice on the paper. Only two "big" cores, but that should be enough, since mostly you need high single core performance rather than many cores. With that the CPU temp could also be a lot lower than with the octa cores CPUs.
No matter if it has Mali-V or Mali-DP support I kinda want to know how Samsung developed the last couple years. The XU4 is basically a 2 1/2 year old SoC/board and kinda outdated. A lot happend in the meantime, I wonder how Samsung did in these years^^
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby hugolp » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:08 am

I was just posting the news because this seemed the best place, not saying that we should wait until 2019 or 2020 when those hypothetical chips would be available for hardware developers for a new XU board.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby alpha_one_x86 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:16 pm

hugolp wrote:I was just posting the news because this seemed the best place, not saying that we should wait until 2019 or 2020 when those hypothetical chips would be available for hardware developers for a new XU board.

But with AMD and open source politic it will be great with linux to have correct and updated driver under linux
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby hugolp » Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:00 pm

alpha_one_x86 wrote:
hugolp wrote:I was just posting the news because this seemed the best place, not saying that we should wait until 2019 or 2020 when those hypothetical chips would be available for hardware developers for a new XU board.

But with AMD and open source politic it will be great with linux to have correct and updated driver under linux


Yes, AMD would be great for drivers. The issue with AMD is that Nvidia usually has better power consumption and they have more experience adding their GPU's to ARM SoC, since they have their own line. If AMD handles the power consumption right, I would preffer them, but both options are an improvement over Mali.

The real issue here is for Qualcomm. Exynos and Snapdragon were on similar performance/consumption when the Exynos 4412 era. Then Samsung decided to switch architecture early, while Snapdragon stayed in the same one. So the 800 and 801 wiped the floor of the equivalent Exynos. But then it came the 810, where Qualcom had to change the architecture, and the chipset was a complete flop, while Samsung had more experience with the new architecture and their chipset was a lot better. With the 820 Qualcom has reduced distances, but Exynos is still ahead. Samsung made the architecture change earlier and paid the price then, but now is in a much better position and Qualcom is still catching up. The article also says Samsung is licensing their own CDMA modem tech. That means no more Qualcom version of Samsung phones for the USA since they will be able to use the Exynos with CDMA modem. Together with a killer GPU for Exynos SoCs... if I were Qualcom I would be scared.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby hugolp » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:43 pm

New Kirin 960 from Huawei. The Kirin line looks very interesting and if they are cheaper than the Exynos equivalent they should be considered as an option for the XU line IMO.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10766/hua ... 60-a73-g71

Edit: it even has UFS2.1. Interesting chip, next best chips will probably be in 10nm.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby alpha_one_x86 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:36 am

hugolp wrote:UFS2.1

UFS + 3D Xpoint should be spectacular.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby synportack24 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:28 am

How about the use of a NXP I.MX8 processor for the XU5?
http://www.cnx-software.com/2016/10/06/ ... low-power/

It's got a 3 different version that are drop in replacements for each other, this would make it easy for Hardkernel to have multiple version of the XU5 at different performance and price points.

* i.MX 8QuadMax which integrates two ARM Cortex®-A72 cores, four Cortex-A53 cores, two Cortex-M4F cores and two GC7000XS/VX GPUs

* i.MX 8QuadPlus which integrates one ARM Cortex-A72 core, four Cortex-A53 cores, two Cortex-M4F cores and two GC7000LiteXS/VX GPUs

* i.MX 8Quad which integrates four Cortex-A53 cores, two Cortex-M4F cores and two GC7000LiteXS/VX GPUs


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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby crashoverride » Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:19 pm

That feature matrix is very difficult to navigate!

It looks like i.MX8 (not 8M or 8X) is the only chip that does not lose features compared to even S905 (4K, h264 encoding). Also of note is that only GLES 3.0 and OpenCL Embedded are supported (compared to GLES 3.1 and OpenCL Full profile).

The good part (for me) is that the VIvante GPUs actually support OpenVG (for industrial use) instead of the (alleged) support that ARM Mali perpetrates. :P
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby Fred From France » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:39 am

Hello,
Last CPU of XU4 is aging now, it seems that Samsung produced it in early 2014, that for a processor is time to move from production to muséum?
Even if s905 is anewer SoC, it is not usb3 nor sata compliant, with limited 2GB of RAM.

please do you think that Hardkernel will go out from its frozen dev period with a new gen of board?
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby rooted » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:38 am

Fred From France wrote:Hello,
Last CPU of XU4 is aging now, it seems that Samsung produced it in early 2014, that for a processor is time to move from production to muséum?
Even if s905 is anewer SoC, it is not usb3 nor sata compliant, with limited 2GB of RAM.

please do you think that Hardkernel will go out from its frozen dev period with a new gen of board?

They are working on something I assure you, don't know when it will come out.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby alpha_one_x86 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:34 am

Fred From France wrote:it is not usb3 nor sata compliant

It's not the target for the entry level and it's better for the power consumption I think (less device and lower speed device). Note: No 64Bits ARM with native SATA as the A20?
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby crashoverride » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:25 am

Well, its more than just sticking a chip on a board and shipping it. It is also support. There are lots of boards out there with lots of different chips and none of the modern* SoC boards have as much support as Odroids do. Vendor cooperation is as critical as features such as USB3.

[*] The RPi is not a modern board. The SoC and fabrication process are antique.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby hugolp » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:25 pm

Mainline kernel would be really good, almost a must for me.

Having mainline kernel would make things better for both consumers and hardkernel since it would mean less maintenance needed. It would be really great to grab an arm version of any linux distribution and be able to install it.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby crashoverride » Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:41 am

Mainline kernel would be a nightmare for me.

For simple "bare bones" ARM servers I can see its benefits; however, for feature rich consumer SoCs it means the best part of the hardware is unusable or feature limited. This is due to the fact that Linux does not have standards for many things. One example is HDMI CEC. It is currently being worked on, but if it were up to mainline it would not be present on any SoC. Another example is the hardware BLIT engine in Exynos and S908/905. Linux has the concept of display planes in KMS/DRM but does not have the concept of blitting between them that I am aware of. Most importantly, though, modern media codec support is lacking. There is an effort to bring it to V4L through a new interface called "m2m" (memory to memory), but its limited and does not expose the hardware capabilities as OpenMax does.

Mainline moves far too slow to support consumer ARM SoCs. By the time support for a SoC is complete enough to use, the SoC is end-of-life (EOL) and its time to start over. ;)

I think what we currently have with Amlogic support is a good compromise. There is a mature vendor kernel provided (and maintained) that is feature rich while mainline is being worked on.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby hugolp » Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:17 pm

crashoverride wrote:Mainline kernel would be a nightmare for me.

For simple "bare bones" ARM servers I can see its benefits; however, for feature rich consumer SoCs it means the best part of the hardware is unusable or feature limited. This is due to the fact that Linux does not have standards for many things. One example is HDMI CEC. It is currently being worked on, but if it were up to mainline it would not be present on any SoC. Another example is the hardware BLIT engine in Exynos and S908/905. Linux has the concept of display planes in KMS/DRM but does not have the concept of blitting between them that I am aware of. Most importantly, though, modern media codec support is lacking. There is an effort to bring it to V4L through a new interface called "m2m" (memory to memory), but its limited and does not expose the hardware capabilities as OpenMax does.

Mainline moves far too slow to support consumer ARM SoCs. By the time support for a SoC is complete enough to use, the SoC is end-of-life (EOL) and its time to start over. ;)

I think what we currently have with Amlogic support is a good compromise. There is a mature vendor kernel provided (and maintained) that is feature rich while mainline is being worked on.


I was not aware of all those limitations, but even then having mainline kernel would make easier to maintain and upgrade the kernel with all those features included, right?

Also, I do not understand why Linux still does not have a common api for video decoding hardware acceleration. What would be the problem of using openmax in the desktop?
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby alpha_one_x86 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:51 pm

Use flag for vlc:
  • vaapi : Enable Video Acceleration API for hardware decoding
  • vdpau : Enable the Video Decode and Presentation API for Unix acceleration interface
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby elatllat » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:17 pm

It's not that linux mainline moves too slow (new version every week, new release every 2 months),
It's that the SoC people have a hard time producing passable code ( and sometimes can't be bothered to even respond to constructive criticism).

Another Issue is focus, like if this had just 2 ports (hdmi2,usb3) and an expansion header it would be way cheaper and more desirable;
http://hackerboards.com/open-spec-sbc-d ... re-rk3399/
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby crashoverride » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:28 am

elatllat wrote:It's not that linux mainline moves too slow (new version every week, new release every 2 months),

Those are "released and forgotten". It is significantly longer between LTS releases that companies base products on.

elatllat wrote:it would be way cheaper and more desirable

The $138 early bird Kickstarter deals are gone, but you can get a standard Firefly-RK3399 kit with 2GB RAM and 16GB eMMC for $159. There’s also a Plus version for $199 with 4GB RAM and 32GB eMMC.


The XU4 is half the cost. For those prices, its "cheaper and more desirable" to get a x86 system. :D
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby elatllat » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:55 am

He did say mainline not LTS (LTS are released once a year or after a big change)

Yes x86 and arm SBCs are getting closer in price but I hope we soon (<1 year) get a minimal 4k + usb3 arm SBC for <$90 . I think it's realistic but we will see.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby crashoverride » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:28 am

I mainly just keep posting to these "Next XYZ board" threads because I am ready for a new board!!!! :lol:

I keep toying with the idea of getting one of the S912 Android media boxes to hack. So far nothing else has really peaked my interest. I have become far too spoiled with the power/price point of the Odroid C2. They are cheap enough to experiment with. If I kill it, I wont cry myself to sleep. Things become much more serious at the $150 (or Nvidia's $500) price point.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby docteurcpu » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:22 pm

Finaly , its Exynos 7880 or 7650 for the XU5 ? ;)
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby alpha_one_x86 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:54 pm

docteurcpu wrote:Finaly , its Exynos 7880 or 7650 for the XU5 ? ;)

Or the Exynos 7 Octa 7420. 14 nm LPE and DDR4
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby hugolp » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:49 am

alpha_one_x86 wrote:
docteurcpu wrote:Finaly , its Exynos 7880 or 7650 for the XU5 ? ;)

Or the Exynos 7 Octa 7420. 14 nm LPE and DDR4


+1
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby fractal » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:35 pm

About the only thing I would like to see in a < 100 dollar XU class board would be a m.2 interface. sata if you can't get m.2. m-sata as a last resort.

Many of the SoCs used for these boards are for phones / tablets. I would not expect to see a storage interface on a phone / tablet SoC.

But some are some SoCs aimed at Set top boxes. I should think a PVR would need some cheap, bulk storage.

I did say "like" because it I currently boot from sdcard and mount my working store over the network. gigabit ethernet is faster than a hard drive. Not as fast as a SSD or my file server, but plenty quick for an itty bitty arm. But a m.2 slot would allow for a wifi / BT module without using USB or a pretty decent size flash drive.
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Re: Which List for Next Gem (XU5)

Unread postby meveric » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:26 pm

fractal wrote:But some are some SoCs aimed at Set top boxes. I should think a PVR would need some cheap, bulk storage.

I wouldn't call a m-sata device a "cheap" bulk data. Even a crappy 5400 rpm HDD has at least 30 MiB/sec that's 240Mbit data stream, I know of no movie that uses such high data stream, normal blurays only have 54 Mbit/sec at most. So having a m-sata solution is not only very expensive but also very over dimentioned for the speed requirements.
And if I really have a PVR device, I would rather have 2TB of cheap storage to store tons of shows, than 128 GB of very fast expensive storage ;)
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